why buy expensive t-5's when led's are better?

[Reef Reaper]

dj ze, where did you buy your leds from?

 

[JimmyR1rider]

Over a 4' tank:

$560 for the ATI fixture + $120 per year X 3 years($360) + 60 watts per hour per day over three year(approx. $120)= $1040

2 X AI about $1100

So in about 3 years they are about a wash. Over MH the leds will pay for themselves in 2 or less years depending on chiller usage/necessity.

LEDs may not appear as bright but they give more PAR per watt and cause those glitter lines that we all love.

Plus, for those GREEN people, they contain no mercury.

Yeah but like already stated- LED's are like computers, every 3-6 months there is some outrageous upgrades that in my eyes if youre running LED's is something youll be upset youre fixture doesnt have and want to upgrade, a better controller, comes with multiple optics for different spread of light or adjustable optics, easier exchange of LED's to change color array easily so on and so forth----youre upgrade is then another $2000 - $5000 dollars depending on the size of your tank, when the replacement of your T-5 only OR T-5 with MH fixture will still be $400-$700. Then once you upgrade its another 3-4 year wait till the LED fixture has then again paid for itself.


Kind of a vicious circle to me.

 

[dj ze]

dj ze, where did you buy your leds from? i'm a member of a chineese lighting community i have a contact that deals with 3 company's my units come customized ot whatever i want with no additional costs i already have ordered over 30 units.

 

[tttony]

ok, lets not get too far off topic.
had vho, mh,pwcpt and now T5, very happy, never gonna try led's. Lots of punch with T5 change color by changing bulbs. Good sps growth, and a DIY set up cost me $50 for 6 bulb set plus bulbs.lol.You guys crack me up with ure $500.00 fixtures.You might have 10% more par than me but you spend $450 more.

 

[spacenyc]

as person who started thread, this is what i did

bought a 5 bulb t-5 unit recently, used from harlem 20. what tipped me is the response about leds are like computers in their infancy. everything leads me to believe almost all of us will be using leds in 3-5 years. like tvs and computers, every six months you can put it off the price goes down and the tech increases. tipping point is coming soon to make it common and cost effective but seems like it is cutting edge tech and like computers i wait for all the beata tests and bugs before i buy. just my opinion and i remember when i passed on googles $85 ipo because i didnt think it could make money so you know what my opionion is worth

 

[JimmyR1rider]

ok, lets not get too far off topic.
had vho, mh,pwcpt and now T5, very happy, never gonna try led's. Lots of punch with T5 change color by changing bulbs. Good sps growth, and a DIY set up cost me $50 for 6 bulb set plus bulbs.lol.You guys crack me up with ure $500.00 fixtures.You might have 10% more par than me but you spend $450 more.

And whats so funny about 500 dollar fixtures-? Also I have yet to find any T5's that are worth a darn that you can get 6 bulbs, 6 sets of stand offs,, reflectors and ballast to run them for under $50. If you did its an Ebay special and Id rather spend the 450 more and know everything I got is in perfect working condition- and the bulbs be QUALITY bulbs. After all you get what you pay for in this hobby. If everything other than yours is 500 but yours is 50 its like apples and oranges in quality level. Although if you did find it all for 50 bucks you have the hook up of the century....


Remember not all of us are able to construct a DIY fixture- some due to not knowing how to use handtools- YES men sometimes can not operate tools. Or for guys such as myself who have had extensive injuries and like with me my left shoulder isnt really up to par right now cant really do the project THE RIGHT WAY so were forced to buy fixtures. I did my canaopy thats on my tank now but Im getting sick of lifting a heavy thing off the tank. I ordered a Maristar fixture and it will still be way more cost efective than LED's--Plus when its a fixture you buy you get a warranty not so with DIY projects. Yes the products you use have a warranty but its not like you can just send the whole thin in for repair- you have to then disect it and remove the bad parts.

For me and im sure some others is worth it weight or lack there of in gold. Not tryin to stir the pot, just felt it should be said is all.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

ok, lets not get too far off topic.
had vho, mh,pwcpt and now T5, very happy, never gonna try led's. Lots of punch with T5 change color by changing bulbs. Good sps growth, and a DIY set up cost me $50 for 6 bulb set plus bulbs.lol.You guys crack me up with ure $500.00 fixtures.You might have 10% more par than me but you spend $450 more.

wow $50 for a 6 bulb t5's that can grow sps....in a 75 or a 90? would you list those parts, i can use a cheap diy for my fuge.

 

[ecchybridLE]

This is a great thread. Love to see debates on equiptment for the sake of furthuring this hobby. Just wanted to see if anyone has thought to mention plasma lighting? Anyone using or have used plasma lighting? Would like to hear if they stand up to the rest of the our lighting needs. Pretty sure they are around the saw price as led.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[Wes]

Alot of these price comparisons seem to be comparing a "top of the line" T5 fixture made by a reputable company to a generic led fixture made in china with not much history as far as reliability etc.

Everyone says 50,000 hours but I am very skeptical of that claim when it comes to these cheaply made fixtures with poor cooling, off brand LED's, etc.

The more reputable companies that I would actually feel comfortable doing business with price their fixtures out to be MUCH more expensive than a decent T5 fixture from a reputable manufacturer.

I have been considering a LED fixture for my 20L frag tank but I have not found one yet that provides similar coverage and uses less energy than a 4x24w T5 HO fixture. 96 watts and fully customizable color. I want to give LED a chance out of curiosity but it doesn't really make sense on this tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[Imbarrie]

Good points on the quality and price comparisons.

If you compare the same quality T5 with LED it will push the return out by years. If LED lighting remains optimal for 8-10 years they may not be a savings at all.

Looks to me like are all waiting for the cost and tech to arrive at some more reasonable prices before this becomes more than an enthusiasts item.

I am also waiting to see what the longevity is for these units. I have heard years but they haven't been around in production for that long yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[chinatown]

ok, lets not get too far off topic.
had vho, mh,pwcpt and now T5, very happy, never gonna try led's. Lots of punch with T5 change color by changing bulbs. Good sps growth, and a DIY set up cost me $50 for 6 bulb set plus bulbs.lol.You guys crack me up with ure $500.00 fixtures.You might have 10% more par than me but you spend $450 more.

not everyone has a canopy for a DIY setup. just saying

plus, i would question the quality of your material if you got it all for $50. good bulbs alone costs $20 each.

if you're going to brag about your deal, post the hardware you got for $50.

 

[ming]

For me, I used the IceCap retrofit T5 (with icecap ballast) which I considered to be the top of the line for T5's. I have a 6 bulb kit (48") which uses 2 ballast and costs about $600 new, then $120+ every time I change the bulbs. The IceCap overdrives the 54W bulbs to about 80W each for about 480W. This is on a 75G tank so its lighting up about 6 square feet. T5's about 6" above the water and PAR ~800 on the surface of the water.
I also had a 50 breeder tank using 4x36" T5's with IceCap as well using another 200W+ so I was using close to 700W total.

My DIY LED's cost me about $1800, that includes the frag tank on the side. I used 60 degree optics and raised the fixtures to 12" from the surface of the water. To achieve PAR of 800 on the surface, I only turned them on 65% intensity which used about 200W. Its also lighting up a almost double the size tank which is 10.5 square feet, and also deeper. The 50,000 hours are based on CREE's datasheet which should be valid since I am using CREE's, and according to CREE, AFTER 50,000 hours, they drop to about 70% light output. I believe thats also with the assumption the LEDs are at a maximum of 80C which is 176F. My heatsinks are without a doubt keeping them way below that temp so I'm good there as well.

Another great thing is, I don't need to keep a fan blowing at the water to keep it cool since the T5's do generate a lot of heat, contrary to what a lot of other people say.

Based on the electric bill savings mostly, and then plus the T5 bulb replacement savings, I will recoup my cost in a little over 2 years.
These are both DIY so I think the comparison is fairly equal. Both are in a canopy I made myself.

 

[NYreefNoob]

diy = no warranty.and guys building them factor in the amount of time it took you to make it x your hourly rate. so for ming your $1800 in cost plus how many hours research, actually building also. as stated i have ran mh, pc ,vho, led and t5. had the maxspec and a AI unit. i dont like the every 12 months having to drop a chunk on bulbs but i do love being able to create what ever color combo i like, you guys taking par readings how bout kevlar ? missing much of the reds and yellows ? do you have from 6k-20k ? i am not against leds, one day i might own them again. but i will say this i dont truelly care for the fake look of the corals under them. and as ming stated and i have been saying for years, t5 doesnt really produce much less heat then mh, it isn't a focused light so the mh appears to put more heat out, but move your hand 6" over from the mh and there isnt the heat, as where t5's spread heat clear across heating the whole top surface. this is one thing i do love about the ATI powermodule with the fans and how it pulls air in the end and across keeping the whole unit cool.

 

[Hefe-Weizen]

Yeah but like already stated- LED's are like computers, every 3-6 months there is some outrageous upgrades that in my eyes if youre running LED's is something youll be upset youre fixture doesnt have and want to upgrade, a better controller, comes with multiple optics for different spread of light or adjustable optics, easier exchange of LED's to change color array easily so on and so forth----youre upgrade is then another $2000 - $5000 dollars depending on the size of your tank, when the replacement of your T-5 only OR T-5 with MH fixture will still be $400-$700. Then once you upgrade its another 3-4 year wait till the LED fixture has then again paid for itself.


Kind of a vicious circle to me.

Upgrades and new products are nothing new in this hobby. I am still running an ASM G3 with a Sedra needle wheel, I do not plan on an upgrade for some time. I would love a better skimmer, but cannot afford one. I chose to update my lights instead.

 

[JimmyR1rider]

Upgrades and new products are nothing new in this hobby. I am still running an ASM G3 with a Sedra needle wheel, I do not plan on an upgrade for some time. I would love a better skimmer, but cannot afford one. I chose to update my lights instead.

I hear ya- I was just expressing my views about the LED's at this point in time. I was within a hair of pullin the trigger and getting a LED fixture but reconsidered. Id rather wait till a lot more of the improvements that are going to happen do. Right now for me is just too soon. Like I said I was super close to getting it but decided not to at the end.

If you want LED's go LED's. I was more stating that when you do upgrade each time with LED's it take that much longer for the fixture to pay for itself is all.

Best of luck with the lights

 

[Imbarrie]

The 50,000 hours are based on CREE's datasheet which should be valid since I am using CREE's, and according to CREE, AFTER 50,000 hours, they drop to about 70% light output. I believe thats also with the assumption the LEDs are at a maximum of 80C which is 176F. My heatsinks are without a doubt keeping them way below that temp so I'm good there as well.

Is this based on 100% output at all light frequencies? Or, is this the same as a skimmer company rating tank size?

Im curious because I also want to make the jump to LED sometime. I am also not against making my own fixture.

 

[ming]

diy = no warranty.and guys building them factor in the amount of time it took you to make it x your hourly rate. so for ming your $1800 in cost plus how many hours research, actually building also. as stated i have ran mh, pc ,vho, led and t5. had the maxspec and a AI unit. i dont like the every 12 months having to drop a chunk on bulbs but i do love being able to create what ever color combo i like, you guys taking par readings how bout kevlar ? missing much of the reds and yellows ? do you have from 6k-20k ? i am not against leds, one day i might own them again. but i will say this i dont truelly care for the fake look of the corals under them. and as ming stated and i have been saying for years, t5 doesnt really produce much less heat then mh, it isn't a focused light so the mh appears to put more heat out, but move your hand 6" over from the mh and there isnt the heat, as where t5's spread heat clear across heating the whole top surface. this is one thing i do love about the ATI powermodule with the fans and how it pulls air in the end and across keeping the whole unit cool.

It goes both ways though, with DIY, I can pretty easily figure out what needs to be replaced and replace it fairly easily. The most expensive single part is a driver which would be like ~$30 or less, or maybe a burnt LED ~$6 throughout the life of my LED setup which could possibly be 10 years. With a standard fixture, you might get a year warranty usually, and every year after that, you would be charged for a labor rate + replacement part. On top of that, you would be out of a light for possibly a week while you ship it and they fix it. If I have a single LED burn out and can't get a replacement, I can simply bypass it and run the remaining LED's. If a driver fails, I can order one and run 1 less without a problem until the replacement arrives since I have 9 of them total on my main tank, another one on a frag tank, and going to have another on a fuge. I can control the whites and blues individually which is great and very happy with the kelvin spectrum. I typically never take my time into consideration when doing a hobby because this isn't a profession. If I was concerned about the value of my time, I wouldn't be in this hobby.

Is this based on 100% output at all light frequencies? Or, is this the same as a skimmer company rating tank size?

Im curious because I also want to make the jump to LED sometime. I am also not against making my own fixture.

Based on internal long-term reliability testing, Cree projects that white XLamp XR-E LEDs will deliver median 70% lumen
maintenance after 50,000 hours of operation at a forward current of 700 mA. This projection is based on constant current operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 135?C and ambient air temperature maintained at or below 25?C.
Cree projects royal blue, blue, green and white XLamp XR-E LEDs to maintain a mean 70% lumen maintenance after 50,000 hours, provided the LED junction temperature is maintained at or below 90?C and ambient air temperature is maintained at or below 85?C.

Cree currently recommends a maximum drive current of 1000 mA for XLamp XP-G white in designs seeking the ENERGY STAR* 35,000 hour lifetime rating (≥ 94.1% luminous flux @ 6000 hours) or 25,000-hour lifetime rating (≥ 91.8% luminous flux @ 6000 hours).

 

[tynman]

LED's are the way to go!!! NO heat, No bulb changing, you can make the color as blue as you want it and change it everyday so no bulbs to figure out the color you want, sunset and sun up, no more boom blue light is on boom white lights are on... I had wingo build me my led system, lights cost me $900 and the profilux controler $350 so Im into it for 1250 and I dont think you can make any other light fixture t5's or mh make your tank look like the LED's.. Everyone that sees my tank in person cant believe how great the LED's make it look. And the sps like the leds also.. Make sure if you go with led's get the dimmable ones...

 

[JimmyR1rider]

What size is your tank? Good price for sure. But I still find it odd that people have such price differences with their equipment.


The other thing I worry about right now is----LED's are new enough and so many companies jumped into the manufacturing that you never know if you get them from a company such as AI or PACSUN etc. or get them built if in 2 years the company or person you got them off of will still be in business/dealing in LED's.

 

[tynman]

Well I have a 76 gal half circle tank which makes it very hard to light up so thats why I went with wingo to custum build them for me. Its like anything else its new everyone is trying to get rich quick off it before everyone one makes them. There is also a big law suit with the led's so that may mess up thee led's for tanks cause if the one company wins then that might mean they are the only company that could make them and then they can set there price ski high and they wont have any compation....

What size is your tank? Good price for sure. But I still find it odd that people have such price differences with their equipment.


The other thing I worry about right now is----LED's are new enough and so many companies jumped into the manufacturing that you never know if you get them from a company such as AI or PACSUN etc. or get them built if in 2 years the company or person you got them off of will still be in business/dealing in LED's.