Reef Nutrition Phyto Feast

[Deanos]

Also sorry to derail but from what I understand older clams can get their nutrition from just photosynthesis alone but can feedings of phyto be beneficial as well?

Yes.

 

[jhale]

I meant with the clams. Can anyone vouch or compare phyto feast to DTs. I don't dose DTs I simply remove my clam and feed it. That's why I asked. Also sorry to derail but from what I understand older clams can get their nutrition from just photosynthesis alone but can feedings of phyto be beneficial as well?

like Dean said "yes" I have some smaller clams that should be fine with just photosynthesis, but I want to provide them with whatever else that can help them. I'm not going to turn my tank into a green mess, but some phyto is better than no phyto.

 

[ReeferGoneMad]

Ah I see. Figure it would just like feeding a dog the good stuff. They live longer and they have a better overal health, the same goes for our reef inhabitants I guess. I will be dosing outside since my tank is very small though I've had good results with PCs I know shoot me but I feed phyto as well. You should remember dean I bought a 2 inch clam from ronen at the last swap and you and Herman suggested what I do.blah blah blah anyway. Thanks dean and j.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

like Dean said "yes" I have some smaller clams that should be fine with just photosynthesis, but I want to provide them with whatever else that can help them. I'm not going to turn my tank into a green mess, but some phyto is better than no phyto.

J, I like the idea of "provide them with whatever else that can help."

I am sure we can grow smaller clams (like 2 inches) with photosynthesis alone to a point just enough time for them to become more efficient in using light. It's like we, human beings, can still grow bigger deficient in calcium but the problem only shows up much later in our life when we see stunted growth as in height, bristle bones and such. We just has not enough knowledge of giant clams. Many people still believe in photosynthesis alone would be good enough for giant clams but I strongly oppose the idea. There are proteins in clams that photosynthesis alone cannot make. Guys here don't have to trust me but I think Solby being a microbiologist(PhD)have similar findings about those proteins(Solby correct me if I have misquoted you) not to mention a members' mom, who were hired to Indo to research clam farming production improvements, have the same findings. BTW, I have smaller clams that grow base on light alone but those that lived in the dirtier tanks seem grow faster base on shell size. I found that mantle size has little meaning as to define the growth of a clam. I know most clam farmers use shell size(because it directly translate to money) as a guideline while researchers like to use weight as well.

If we think phyto does little or nothing to our corals, based on the notion that most corals do not eat phyto, could be very misleading. A lot of the corals need the bacteria around their immediate surroundings and those bacteria do like phyto. Guys here don't have to trust me again but I think Spracklcat has done some research in this area(correct me if I have misquoted you.)

Even Calfo is indeed correct in pointing out phyto tends to foul water more than helping our tanks but I found that it's not a problem with phyto but a problem of our knowledge in dosing phyto. Since someone detailed the dosing amount and the formular of Randy's 2 part, it becomes a good product. I am sure if Randy did not detailed the method, it will do more harm than good as well. 99% of reefers has no means to calculate the composition of the solution and how to dose them properly. Therefore, since we know so little about how to use phyto, I think we should collect more data either in hobby manner(simple hobbyist sightings) and/or in a more scientific control fashion instead of belittling the potential of phyto. Hopefully years later some of us find a good way of dosing it. Once we master it, we can have one more ingredient to the "aggressive feeding/aggressive nutrient removal" method.

EDIT: phyto being a direct food source is just as important as increase appetite of corals.
Loismustdie is right-testing of water quality is very very important (which i should also stress at the beginning) In fact some of our memebrs realize the importance long time by asking J the questions of before/after water par levels but I think those pars are not enough thoug). The protein thing is not just about clams but also apply to other corals even though corals can get them from other sources too.

 

[loismustdie]

Even Calfo is indeed correct in pointing out phyto tends to foul water more than helping our tanks but I found that it's not a problem with phyto but a problem of our knowledge in dosing phyto. Since someone detailed the dosing amount and the formular of Randy's 2 part, it becomes a good product. I am sure if Randy did not detailed the method, it will do more harm than good as well. 99% of reefers has no means to calculate the composition of the solution and how to dose them properly. Therefore, since we know so little about how to use phyto, I think we should collect more data either in hobby manner(simple hobbyist sightings) and/or in a more scientific control fashion instead of belittling the potential of phyto. Hopefully years later some of us find a good way of dosing it. Once we master it, we can have one more ingredient to the "aggressive feeding/aggressive nutrient removal" method.

Which is why you should be reading test kit results rather than bottles. Nutrients go up, you're dosing too much. The same way I do Randy 2 part. I hate to say it, but I found the calculator to be helpful in getting to certain levels, but it is useless for daily dosing. That calculator doesn't know your uptake, neither does the directions on a phyto bottle. I had to dose and test until I maintained a steady level. You should also dose phyto and test until you hit a sweet spot where your levels aren't effected. Every tank is different.
While I guess it's true, helping clams with some food is good, isn't the best possible water quality going to do the most for them? I see no point in dosing something the clams might get a taste of and nothing else really eats with a trade off of higher nutrients.
Sounds like more magic in a bottle.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Which is why you should be reading test kit results rather than bottles. Nutrients go up, you're dosing too much.
.
.
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Sounds like more magic in a bottle.

Hmm good point here and I rate products like the following:

Excellent products: follow instructions and no worry about testing for accuracy ever (I wonder if that ever happens)
Good Products: requires testing like half a year
Fair Products: a month
Not Good Enough Products: a week
Bad Products: before and after dose (if we have these, our lifes are owned by the products)
Magic in a bottle: testing does not help at all because we have no control on them and we found there is no magic is the bottles:p

So J, after you used have enoughe experience of it, let us know which category it falls into.

 

[loismustdie]

Hmm good point here and I rate products like the following:

Excellent products: follow instructions and no worry about testing for accuracy ever (I wonder if that ever happens)
Good Products: requires testing like half a year
Fair Products: a month
Not Good Enough Products: a week
Bad Products: before and after dose (if we have these, our lifes are owned by the products)
Magic in a bottle: testing does not help at all because we have no control on them and we found there is no magic is the bottles:p

So J, after you used have enoughe experience of it, let us know which category it falls into.

As much as I wish this logic were true, our tanks would have to be cookie cut-outs of each other in order for this to work. Identical in the amounts of what the take in, expel and live stock involved.
Don't you test freshly mixed salt water every time you mix it? Does that make salt a bad product? Wouldn't Jon have to test frequently in order to figure out base numbers? So it's a bad product already? I think you misread what I wrote above. I'm saying to test initially to get your base line numbers stable. Then you know how much to dose. Do you think I test before and after every dose? I dose 2 part 48 times per day. My kits would be exhausted in 2 days.
What about the logic of "don't dose what you don't test for". I liked Jon previous signature best. I don't remember it word for word, but it was along the lines of what separates the advanced from the beginner is accurate testing. After a base is established, weekly testing of PO4, NO3, Ca, Mg and alk would be good advice. Fish and corals grow. We add and remove LS.
If you read the bottles on most supplements, you will see it broken down into "normal" or "beginners" instructions with a set amount per gallon and then you will see "advanced" instructions, where they advise testing to reach desired numbers.
We are pulling this off topic. Jon, I hope it works out for you and all goes well. Keep us updated. :backtotop

 

[jhale]

my last sig, I think was "the ability to test ones water accurately separates the advanced reefer from the hobbiest" ironically this was inspired by what Chris said in the hanna meter thread.

regarding phyto feast and the company that makes it www.reed-mariculture.com - I had a short conversation with one of the owners at nerac, he said that selling products to reefers was a small part of their business. the majority of the food they produce goes to the commercial fishery's around the world. They are used to rear fry, and grow shell fish.

I'll be testing the PO4 and NO3 each week as I normally do, I'm not adding so much phyto feast that the tank is going to climb in nutrients that fast. I'm feeding the tank just 5 teaspoons a day, and it clears up in less than an hour, if that. It's being added for the clams benefit, and if it helps the pods grow then my mandarin will be happy.

 

[aaron23]

can this thread be an excuse to see more pictures of your tank J??

:biggrinpa

 

[Redstratplayer1]

Which is why you should be reading test kit Nutrients go up, you're dosing too much.

You should also dose phyto and test until you hit a sweet spot where your levels aren't effected. Every tank is different.

Nutrients go up because you are adding somthing to your tank.
Even if the clam ingests phyto it still expels waste.

I think?

 

[loismustdie]

Identical in the amounts of what they take in, expel and live stock involved.

yes what they expel would have to be considered, as was stated in post #27.

 

[GreshamH]

Roti-feast is too big for SPS to eat. Your fish will like it.

To big? Funny, all the scientists (~10, including Eric and Rob Toonen) we spoke to regarding a over all good size for most SPS said that we're fine in this range (50ul to 250ul). The upper end is a bit large, but that makes it a suitable LPS and Gorgonian feed. In the coming months, Roti-Feast will have an even smaller lower end.

FWIW, you better have some really small fish to eat rotifers. Typically only the first few weeks of life does a fish eat rotifers.

Changin subject,

Phyto-Feast and coral polyp extension/fish feeding response. PF creates a stir in both corals and fish due to the aminos and such released from the phytoplankton. They're not eating it really, just reacting to the smell/taste. It is a great way to get new fish to eat in my experience.

As pointed out by another poster, our core business is aquaculture, selling into over 70 countries to 500+ hatcheries, research facilities, public aquariums and governement labs. At this point, we're the largest producer of marine microalgal feeds on the planet, well, mother earth aside

 

[ellebelle]

I saw Calfo speak once and he said phyto has little benefit to most tanks. Coral simply don't eat it (hard and soft) and things that do (featherdusters, gorgonians, carnations and flame scallops) need such a high concentration in the water to sustain them, you would be pouring a bottle a day in a 55.

I'm not sure how beneficial phyto even is for the gorgonian with larger polyps. I never see a feeding response from my yellow finger gorgonian when I dose phyto, but when I spot feed it cyclopeeze or brine or even when smaller pieces of flake fish food drift over to it, I can see the polyps close over the food source.

I was dosing 2 tsp. every day into my 29g tank for a little while, and while I got great growth on my feather duster and lots and lots of pods, my nutrient levels went waaaaay up. Have been doing lots of water changes and have started dosing only twice per week and things look 10x better. I'll continue dosing phyto into my fuge if for no other reason than it encourages pod growth, but I'm not sure it's worth it (for me) to dose it at higher levels in my tank.

 

[loismustdie]

Changin subject,

Phyto-Feast and coral polyp extension/fish feeding response. PF creates a stir in both corals and fish due to the aminos and such released from the phytoplankton. They're not eating it really, just reacting to the smell/taste. It is a great way to get new fish to eat in my experience.

As pointed out by another poster, our core business is aquaculture, selling into over 70 countries to 500+ hatcheries, research facilities, public aquariums and governement labs. At this point, we're the largest producer of marine microalgal feeds on the planet, well, mother earth aside

Very nice plug. Glad to see you're here to provide hobbyists with solid information and not here to try and sell us something.

You're not comparing an aquaculture or hatchery (usually thousands of gallons of water volume, not for display and sometimes open systems in one form or another) to a 125 gallon main display reef sitting in someone's living room?

When I target fed my sun polyps rotifers, wrasses would come in and eat what they didn't catch. My x-mas wrasse is 7 inches long. It still eats rotifers.

Phyto-Feast and coral polyp extension/fish feeding response. PF creates a stir in both corals and fish due to the aminos and such released from the phytoplankton. They're not eating it really, just reacting to the smell/taste. It is a great way to get new fish to eat in my experience.

Didn't I say that already? It's not going to get eaten. It just going to foul the water.

Most people on this board are hobbyists, not professional aquaculturists. Most are looking for that magic in a bottle that will make color and growth pop. Most don't follow simple water quality guidelines. Feeding anything isn't going to help if your PO4 is over .3 (most common reading I got when I tested members water on a Hanna were between .30 and .35)
We are trying to get to a certain level here. Food isn't going to help. It will only magnify the problem most already have.
As I said in previous posts, water quality comes first. Once you've got that down, you can try some foods, but it is best to start small and test. If nutrient levels go up, you're using too much or the stuff is just snake oil.

 

[jhale]

I don't think it's fair to put a negative spin on Phyto Feast, it's a food that is proven to have specific uses. If people on this site do thier homework it's not hard to use. It's like any other product we choose to dose with, you better know what your doing.

Since I've been using the phyto feast my nutriant level has not changed.
I tested yesterday and I could not get a reading for NO3 at all (seachem test) and my PO4 has gone down! (I've been running rowaphos) I have to say I've been dosing pretty heavy amounts also. My method is to saturate the tank, then let the skimmer take it out. It takes about a half hour for the tank to go from green to clear, I'm dosing 5-10 squirts from the bottle.
Each squirt is equal to one teaspoon. Now is it helping the tank? The clams sure look happy when I dose it, and if it's adding food for the pods then that makes Jose the mandarin happy.

oh I'm also upgrading my skimmer so I feed more food for the SPS without worrying it's going to rot away in the tank.

 

[loismustdie]

oh I'm also upgrading my skimmer so I feed more food for the SPS without worrying it's going to rot away in the tank.

It is not my intent to put a negative spin on anything. I'm just saying what everyone else is. Jon, you are one of few people who can get away with certain things on experience alone. Most, including myself cannot. I feed as well, including AA. My PO4 goes down too. PO4 reactors are nice, huh? So are better skimmers. I've gotten away with more since going beckett.
Lissa, good points. He did not mention types of gorgonians. It was just part of his presentation. And for me being inexperienced in gorgo's(I've never had one), I can't say anything for them. What you have seen is helpful though.

 

[jhale]

Chris you are too modest. But yes I see what you meant a product can be harmful for those who do not understand what they do and how to use them.
I figure if your in this hobby you owe it to your tank, and to yourself to educate yourself. you will have a more successful tank, and in the long run save money. well, I should say save save money on replacing livestock. I know with the purchases I made recently my wallet would argue on the saving money part

 

[jhale]

phyto update
3/14 - 4/1
feeding phyto feast and rotifers the po4 went from .02 to .09

my tank feeding will stop while I get the po4 situation in hand.
no photos, but I will say everything in the tank is healthy and happy.
the zoa's have gone nuts, maybe it's the rotifers.
I'll be adding a larger skimmer and one more tlf reactor with rowaphos.

I was dosing heavy by the way, I think this accounted for the quick jump.
that and there was no water change during this time.

 

[tosiek]

I would like to add that magic rocks are the best toy ever......

Thanks for the update Jhale. Have you seen any improvement with SPS or a decline? any change because of the phos swing yet?

 

[jhale]

no change in the sps I can see.
I only fed the rotifers for a week, so it can't be based on that at all.

magic rocks are cool think of the money we could have saved :smash: