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meschaefer

One to Ignore
Location
Astoria
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I came home last night to find that my blue/green horrida had started to RTN. In retrospect, I think I may have noticed the beggining of the event yeasterday morning, but just thought that the coloring was off due to there being no lights on in the tank.

Anyway, I get home last night and there is a large patch of tissue recession, centered on the "trunk" of the colony and spreading out to each of the "branches". I qucikly pulled the colony, and fraged off each of the branches above the tissue recession and mounted them on two frag plugs. It being very late I didn't have any time to test ALk, Calcium and Maganesium. But I will test them tonight.

I did take a look at some of my monitors.

Salinity was 1.026 (My normal salinity)
Ph was 8.10, the PH swing for the previous 24 hours was 7.88-8.20 (this is my normal swing)
temp was 78.2, the temp swing for the previous 24 hours was 77.7 -79.7

I had performed tests (salifert test kits) four days earlier, they where

Calcium 460
Alk 9.0
Mg 1260
Nitrate undetectable
Phosphate undetectable


After performing the above tests I raised my Magnesium to 1350 using Randy's Receipe (Mag Flake and Empsom Salt)

Three weeks ago I started using Phosban, although my phosphate where undetectable, I had some hair algae in my overflow and had a Brown algae (don't know what type - not diatomes) that had taken hold on one of my rocks and was spreading. Interstingly this algae had spread around the Horrida, but was not touching it - it seemed to "avoid" the coral.

Two weeks ago I started using active carbon filtration (in a reactor), as opposed to passive filitrateion wich I had previously used.

The Horrida, was about six inches below the surface of the water and in a high flow area.

This coral was doing amazingly well until this event. One of the fastest growing corals that I had (this is a SPS tank), with great coloration. None of the other corals where effected, and the frags that I made last night looked to be doing well this morning. I had put what was left of the colony back into the tank, just to see what would happen to it and as of this morning the tissue recession does not have seemed to spread.

Any thouhgts?
 

nyfireman3097

Senior Member
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There could be a few things going on PLEASE donot take this wrong
1. No test kits on the market can read PO4 properly find someone with a hanna tester.
2. Because you think you have no PO4 and added the phosban reactor if its too high and too much then its will pull out the PO4 too quickly which in return will cause stuff like this to happen
3. When adding the carbon and PO4 remover if you donot rinse properly it will release small particles into the water column which in return will aggravate thecorals and burn them.

HTH
Nick
 

meschaefer

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Location
Astoria
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Possibly



I do not think that I have no Phosphates, or else I wouldn't have bothered with the phosban. In the same breath, I doubt that I had extremely high phosphate levels. It is my understanding that although salifert test kits basicly suck when testing for phosphate they are accurate enough to let you know whether they are high or low, but that is about it. Since the test showed no phosphates, I would assume that it was low. I had some algae in the tank, but there was vey little of it and it was not running rampant. I started to run the phosban to nip the problem in the bud.

The phosban and carbon where rinsed before being used.

As indicated the phosban was added three weeks ago. After alot of research before adding the phosban, I was under the impression that the phosban or any GFO for that matter, works fairly quickly and as such if there was going to be a sudden drop in phosphate levels it would have happened within the first few days, if not the first few hours. Why would the coral RTN three weeks later, or am I completely off base with everything that I have reiterated above.
 

meschaefer

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Astoria
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Did you notice any color fading after running the carbon in the reactor?


Not in the Horrida. I have noticed a little bit of fading in A. Nana. The fading in the Nanas happened almost immediately after the introduction of the Phosban and not the Carbon. I read that this is not that unuasual, so I didn't worry about it, as many have reported that the color bounces back. FWIW, they never had anywhere near the amazing color that yours has.
 

meschaefer

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Astoria
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I can post a full tank shot tonight. The only picture I have acesss to is very old, and wouldn't be much help.

More tank information

3-4 inch DSB
2 x 175 MH 10K Ushio with Spider Reflectors (Rember tank is only three foot long, so the spread of each bulb overlaps)
2 x 65 PC actinic
2 x Tunze 6025 (w/ retun I have about 30x turnover)
14 gallon custom acrylic sump, with a five gallon fuge on reverse light cycle
DAS EX-2 Skimmer
Auto top off with RO/DI water

Four small fish

2x Percs 1.5 - 2 inches
1 Candy Stripe Hog Wrasse 1.5 inces
1 purple queen anthias 2 inches
 
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loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
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Honestly Matt, it does sound like a combination of the phosban and carbon. Maybe you started off with too much? High alkalinity can possibly be the reason as well, but the phosban and carbon are really sticking out to me.
FWIW, after my red bug treatment, I ran much more carbon than I usually do and noticed some UV burn on a couple of my colonies. Not all of them. Whenever people use "it's just one colony, the rest are thriving", it could still be (and probably is) the reasons mentioned by others above. Different corals react differently and some are more tolerable to certain shifts than others.
chris
 

meschaefer

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Astoria
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Honestly Matt, it does sound like a combination of the phosban and carbon. Maybe you started off with too much? High alkalinity can possibly be the reason as well,

Do you think my alkalinity is high?

I am going to retest tonight, and will provide updated numbers, but I have no reason to believe that there has been a shift in the numbers from four days ago. If there is it would probably explain alot, but we will see.

but the phosban and carbon are really sticking out to me.
FWIW, after my red bug treatment, I ran much more carbon than I usually do and noticed some UV burn on a couple of my colonies.

What does UV burn look like? Whats interesting is that it appears the recession started on the underside of the "branches" and the "trunk" (are there better terms out there than these), as opposed to those portions of the coral receiving the most light. Maybe because those areas that are used to high light, where better perpared for cleaner water and the higher light levels that come with it?

Not all of them. Whenever people use "it's just one colony, the rest are thriving", it could still be (and probably is) the reasons mentioned by others above. Different corals react differently and some are more tolerable to certain shifts than others.
chris

I don't doubt it.


Is there any corrective action that you think should be taken? This is a three step process: Step one is to try and understand why it happened. Step two is to stop if from happening. Step three is to keep it from happening again.

My initial thought was maybe I have to much of a PH swing, but no one seems bothered by it. I guess that's why I posted as much information as I could, to get at ideas that I didn't or wouldn't think of.

oh yea- thanks eveybody for your input.
 
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loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
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No, I don't think it's alkalinity, but you should check.
Recession on the underside in low light areas? I don't like the sound of that, but let's not cause any scares for no reason.
Tank size and amount of Phosban used?
I really do think it's too much phosban.
 

meschaefer

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Astoria
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65 gallon tank. I have about 50 grams of phosban in the reactor. I didn't measure it out, but it is about 1/3 of what came in the 150g container.

When i first set up the phosban reactor (set up on January 14) I had 75 grams in it. I ended up changing it out after 4-5 days as I had a clumping issue. I refilled it a couple of days later, with what I had left, minus what I lost in a spillage accident. (As you can see this is working out real well for me, the bright side is that my algae has started to pull back alittle)
 

meschaefer

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Location
Astoria
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When I got home tonight I tested my Alk Calcium and Magnesium and they haven't deviated from the tests before the RTN. There is no recession on the frags I made, and it has only advanced a little bit on what's left of the colony.

Rich asked for a picture of the tank, so here it is. It is not a good one, the color are all of and its a bad angle, but it is the only one I have available. And one of the sump for good measure.


w-tank1-7.jpg

w-Sump1-7.jpg
 

jackson6745

SPS KILLER
Location
NJ
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Matt I know you're already running phosban but looking at the brownish color to your acros I can't help but thinking your phosphate is still high. If your phosphates are <.07 the colors should lighten up. IMO I would keep running the phosban (change every month) and do a couple large water changes to get rid of any possible toxins lower nutrients. I would also cut down on feedings.

PS see if Nick will sell you a little of that zeospur :D That stuff supposed to kill off 1/2 the zoox in your acros
 

meschaefer

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Astoria
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I am continuing with the the phosban, and I do need to do some water changes.

There is "a little":( more brown in my corals than I want. I do have a couple of peices that have some really nice vibrant color, but the photo really is a bad and they are kind of hidden/lost in there.
 

loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
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Okay, I know you say it's a bad pic, but by looking at it, I'd say it's high PO4 period.
When I let my nutrients get away from me over the summer, I would have certain corals RTN. Most were saved, so don't panic.
Looking at your sump, it was somewhat similar to mine with the rock in there. I removed the rock and added on filter socks. 25% water change. I now keep my sump very clean, since a sump does act as a settling chamber, you remove tons of nutrients just by keeping it clean. You wouldn't believe how fast my nutrients started to drop (assuming you change filter socks every 2 days).
Is that supposed to be a fuge? Dump it.
 

meschaefer

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Location
Astoria
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I have recently started using filter socks, and when I do Water changes I vacume out the sump, picking up all the detrius. The "fuge", has only really served me as a holding tank, for stuff I needed to/wanted to get out of the main tank. I held an anenome in there for a while, a crab that has been banished from the main tank, right now I am mainly usinig it to store some live rock that I had left over, when I moved this tank from a 75.

Assuming that it was a sudden drop P04 that caused the RTN and it PO4 that is responsible for the bown hue found in my tank, what am I to do. Do I risk any more corals using the Phosban? If I was to do some large water changes, wouldn't that also drop the phosphate levels very quickly?
 

loismustdie

chicks dig beckett men
Location
Brooklyn
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No, seriously Matt. After looking at the pics, it's high PO4. Period. Go slow. Increase your amount of Phosban by 1 ounce a week. CHANGE IT WEEKLY. Matt, I had to run 2 PO4 reactors filled to the top on a 180 to get my levels down (that is approximately 800 gallons of phosban on 240 gallons of water). I had to build to that level though. Phosban isn't a magic pill which requires no maintenance. It's a build up and then leveling off. I'm using a Dialyseas and I can tell you that i would never run a tank without a PO4 reactor. Patience. Keeping PO4 low is hard.
Also, Fred (fritz) said it best, water that goes to your sump is skimmed from the top, which is loaded with the nastiest **** in your tank.
The rock in your sump is getting loaded with the nastiest **** in your tank. Eventually, it let's it go. If something isn't good enough for your main display, introduce it to the garbage can.
 
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meschaefer

One to Ignore
Location
Astoria
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OK I will continue to run the phoban. I don't doubt I have a phospate issue. It is the reason that I decided to run phosban in the first place, wish is what led to this issue. I plan on running phosban continuesly.

you think I shoud get rid of the fuge. I was never runninig it for denitratefication or phosphate control, the plan is to eventually get the rock and crap out of it and use it strictly for cheato for pod production.

Oh by the way...

:thanks:
:smile:
 

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