Nitrates in an SPS Tank

[kimoyo]

I don't interpret it that way. I think that both are correct, i.e. space limitations affecting growth and host catabolism.

I don't agree. The authors are saying that at low popuplation density growth rate is highest. That this might be interperted that more space is available. But that they believe host, thru catabolism, provides more nutrients (a very general word!) at low population density.

"Growth rate is probably density-dependent, as growth rates of zoox in situ appear to be greatest in conditions of low population density. This has been observed both in natural hosts with different population densities and in experimental infections of algae-free hosts. While one interpretation is that more "space" is available, we propose that host catabolism provides a greater relative supply of nutrients for symbionts at low population densities. Moveover, the achieveable algal biomass of the symbiosis will depend on the supply of "new" nutrients to the symbiosis."

If it s space dependent then it would seem that the coral is unable to limit the flow of nutrients to the zoo.

But if the coral chooses to only limit the flow after the zoox reach a certain density, kinda makes we wonder. If they can control the flow why not stop it sooner before their growth is affect in a high nutrient environment. Maybe spykes is right and the corals don't know when too much of something is bad.

 

[kimoyo]

He probably means energy stored for a rainy day, like we mammels do when we over eat and convert energy to fat reserves (potential energy). He is generalizing not being specific to the questions at hand.

And your right Paul, corals don't store energy, they just grow and Grow and GROW!!.

Nah, its just that we had this discussion over at RC last summer and other places. And I've been trying to get an explanation for it since. But it went into the 2 light spike theory for growth. It would derail this thread to even mention it more.

 

[ShaunW]

Paul, I have to go teach a class soon, so I have no time now to continue, but I am truely enjoying this discussion. Later tonight, I'll get back into it if I'm not to tried after a long day.

 

[kimoyo]

Paul, I have to go teach a class soon, so I have no time now to continue, but I am truely enjoying this discussion. Later tonight, I'll get back into it if I'm not to tried after a long day.

Have fun :lol:.

 

[ShaunW]

Nah, its just that we had this discussion over at RC last summer and other places. And I've been trying to get an explanation for it since. But it went into the 2 light spike theory for growth. It would derail this thread to even mention it more.

Oh, ,then I will let Dave explain Dave! :lol: .

 

[jackson6745]

:bump: :bump:

 

[cali_reef]

No3 still at 50 two weeks after the BK300 been in the system.

 

[jackson6745]

:bump:

 

[ShaunW]

I guess that's a hint, :lol: .

 

[ShaunW]

No3 still at 50 two weeks after the BK300 been in the system.

This makes sense, since NO3 is removed (in great amounts) through biological filtration (bacteria, macroalgae) not mechanical filtration devices like skimmers.

 

[cali_reef]

This makes sense, since NO3 is removed (in great amounts) through biological filtration (bacteria, macroalgae) not mechanical filtration devices like skimmers.

Shouldn't a skimmer removing crap before it have a chance to completely decompose help with the No3, in great amounts?

 

[ShaunW]

If organic matter/waste/"crap" has already decomposed and is present already as NO3, your skimmer isn't going to remove it. If your able to read NO3 on a test kit then this process has already happened (crap decomposed to NO3) and the only way to remove it is via water changes and biological filtration.

Your right however, in that a skimmer will act as "preventative medicine" by removing crap (macromolecules) that can be converted to NO3 (and other "bad" molecules like inorganic phosphate) before they have a chance to be degraded/rot.

 

[jackson6745]

Shaun I didn't know that. I remember last year when Melt (Leon) had a nitrate problem, he slapped a big skimmer on his tank and in a months....no more nitrates.
Perhaps the skimmer removing the macromolecules gives the biological filtration a break so it can take care of your nitrate problem?

 

[ShaunW]

Shaun I didn't know that. I remember last year when Melt (Leon) had a nitrate problem, he slapped a big skimmer on his tank and in a months....no more nitrates.
Perhaps the skimmer removing the macromolecules gives the biological filtration a break so it can take care of your nitrate problem?

Exactly!

Nitrate is too small to be skimmed out directly. Skimmers will act on molecules that don't go into solution easily, i.e. fat, lipids, charged molecules. Soluble molecules in water will not be skimmed out efficiently. A skimmer will however, act and function best on macromolecules of and above a specific size.

 

[kimoyo]

Okay fellas,

I've been thinking about stuff for a while and I think I have a better understanding of what goes on in our tanks. I think we should make two threads, one on bacteria and one on lighting. I finally had time to catch up on a lot of reading this weekend so I'm kinda tired of thinking right now but tomorrow I'm going to start the threads up. I was leaning towards certain ideas but this guy Iwan on this thread really knows his stuff. I just wish he spoke english better. Here's a picture of his reef.

Guys you should read his thread! If you want to read it quickly just ignore what everyone else is saying and just look at what Iwan and Simon (TryTheChi) say. I really think some of the guys on the board could easily have these results. We've been getting more fish to help with colors but I think there is a lot of good in what Ivan is doing. And no I'm not suggesting we all jump on the Zeovit wagon because thats not what he's about (and I don't trust Zeovit); but I do think we should be focusing on feeding our corals directly instead of indirectly thru the fish.

IMO, one of the more insightful things I think Iwan said was

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6684092#post6684092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iwan
You already are right: The bacteria are a reproducing life form .
The problem is that many bacterium types live in our systems. But the bacterium types are competitors.
Certain types dominate with the time while other types are decimated.
To get the balance and therefore the biological stability, I give selected bacteria into the system.

That statement changed how I view keeping a reef tank.

Also, I just wanted to requote what Dave said earlier, I think this is a great starting place to spring into another discussion.

SPS has a layer of slime which corals uses to host bacteria, basically culturing their own food, the bacteria breaks down the fish defication, noticeably all our defication in a human has bacteria as well, because in our large intestine contains a large amount of cultured symbotic bactera. Fish poop as well has a large amount of bacteria, where it's a substrate to the ones the corals synthsis.

I think we need to get the right amount of the right bacteria in our tanks. Anyway, I hope you guys are down to have a good discussion this week.

 

[jackson6745]

Paul, what do you plan to do differently to your reef after reading this?

 

[aaron23]

After learning from the Julian Sprung conference and the BB and DSB method the idea to bb obviously to siphon not let any of the detris / food crap rest and deteriorate in the water. IT will be skimmed and siphoned. Corals need a certain amount of nitrates to grow. I do not believe that deadly amts of nitrate will be the reason for its growth. It may not only be use to the nitrate but if CA / ALK / PH are all most of the time constant, the corals are well better off. Nitrates are an issue with BB but there are ways like fuge / chaeto and sand bed for denitrification.

 

[jackson6745]

Aaron...say what? Clarify that a little for me please

 

[kimoyo]

Corals need a certain amount of nitrates to grow.

Corals don't need nitrates to grow, they need nitrogen which is different.

 

[kimoyo]

Paul, what do you plan to do differently to your reef after reading this?

I was thinking about doing this before I read that thread, I only saw it this morning. But he said some really interesting things in there.



Get the system very low in nutrients; can be done in different ways, I'm trying to do it with an oversized skimmer.

*Get the right bacteria dominating in the tank.

Blast the corals with hella uniform light.

*Then feed the corals directly.



The two asterisks are the new things. I don't understand it all, nor am I sure it will work but it seems like a good plan.