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java1

Active Reefer
So to kick off some related threads, and because I promised to explain what I meant by the "soft-cycle" a little better I'm posting a thread of my own tank. I'd also like to stimulate some reef-related discussion here in the forum with this. I know it's not much of a tank, and I'm not trying to show-off. On the contrary, as someone teaching a course in reefing I'm a little embarrased that I don't have the mega-thousand gallon system with 5 foot tall sump to back up my "qualifications".

so here goes.

I've always been fascinated by those close-up shots of natural reefs and all the variety of life found on a very small scale. For a long time I mulled over how to achieve that level of diversity in the tank. I know that in all tanks there's a certain degree of competition and after some time dominant organisms outcompete others and one usually ends up with a dominant coraline, a dominant algae, etc, etc. Regardless, I wanted to attempt my own "diversity project" for a while.

The tank is a 6 gallon Tru-Vu with integrated sump and skimmer. The equipment list is as follows:

6 gallon Tru-Vu
Red Sea Berlin Airlift 60 skimmer
Coralife Luft air pump
Visi-Therm Stealth 50W heater
Current Satellite 2x18W
Current Sunpaq 18W dual daylight 6700/10K
Current Sunpaq 18W dual actinic 420nm/460nm

leak test:

1925097456389430500df8.jpg


shot of rear of tank:

1925161056389645490ur4.jpg


Fairly satisfied with the hardware end of things I ordered some drygoods from DrsFosterSmith.com:

Tropic-Marin Pro Reef salt
Carib-Sea Aragamax sand
Coralife digital thermometer
various test kits

At this point it was time for some live stuff. Many considerations came into play here considering the nature of my goals. Obviously I needed some very fresh live rock, and for this I turned to Premium Aquatics. They have a somewhat unique setup (but not the only vendor like this) in that they get their rock directly and VERY quickly from the collectors. I called to see what they had that was very fresh and their Kaelini was apparently very recently collected. As such, the rock was about as "fresh off the reef" as I could find. Obviously I ordered uncured, 15 lbs, knowing that not all would make it into the display or the tank itself. (I used some of the leftover to start a 2.5 pico, but that's for another thread).

Another consideration was that I had meant to order Arag-Alive sand in order to help with the cure/cycle, but instead I ordered plain dry Aragamax. To help this along I ordered a portion of their "Rock Pool Sludge" live sand to mix with the dry Aragamax.

Additionally, although they recommended 2 day shipping and assured me that it would ship fine, I requested overnight shipping; since LR typically ships wrapped in wet towels I wanted to minimize its out-of-water time to as little as possible, and also avoid having the box sit in some 100 degree truck or warehouse during shipping.

That done and expecting the rock and sand the next day, I mixed up 3 gallons of the Tropic Marin Pro Reef to a SG of 1.025 to heat and circulate overnight. As a baseline value for future dosing considerations I checked out the salient parameters of the salt:

carbonate hardness: 7.4 dKH
Calcium: 420 ppm

very close to natural seawater conditions - NICE!

The next day the rock showed up at 9AM and I immediately unwrapped it (smelled like the beach at low tide, not nasty at all) and got it into the water while I set up the rest of the tank. At first glance the rock looked incredible - almost completely covered in coraline of literally a dozen or more colors, a couple sprigs of Halimeda sp., two decent sized (~3" around) colonies of encrusting Montipora sp., and a 1" colony of Alcyonium. I didn't think any of the corals would make it, but I'll get to that.

The live sand was indeed what one would expect of something called "rock pool sludge", very fine sand mixed with many small coral skeleton fragments. When ordering on the phone they aid this was the LS with the most life, and already I could see a few things moving about. Another score. I mixed about half of the sludge with the dry sand to make a sandbed of about 1" - 1.5". I then got the rock into the tank after making more water.

At every step after I got the rock into the water I took various steps to insure minimal stress and die-off. This means all water that came into contact with anything alive was premixed to exactly 1.025 SG, aerated and heated to 80 degF, and I kept things in the water as much as possible, minimizing contact with air from this point out. Even though it was shipped out of water, organisms will still get stressed each time it goes out AND back in in many respects like temperature, O2 levels, dessication and rehydration, pH, the list is endless. So once it made it into the water, it stayed in the water.

a shot soon after filling the tank:

19485121064687447001iv1.jpg


Great, now comes the scary part. Since this was uncured rock I was worried about what I might see regarding ammonia, nitrite and nitrates during curing/cycling; I was particularly worried about the corals. What to do? Normally, many reefers do not change their water during curing and keep and it dark. Considering my goals of keeping as much life as possible (yes, even the hitch-hikers) this wasn't really a viable route in my opinion. So I did my first test at 24 hrs to see what I was dealing with. During this time I ran the skimmer pretty aggressively. The results were:

Day One:
NH4: 0.08 mg/L
NO2: 5 mg/L
NO3: <0.2 mg/L

At this point I just DID NOT want to see ammonia so I did a 75% water change, kept running the skimmer, ran the lights about 4-6 hrs per day, and checked again the next day:

Day Two:
NH4: 0.02 mg/L
NO2: 5 mg/L
NO3: 1 mg/L

Another 75% water change.

Day 3:
NH4: <0.02 mg/L
NO2: 2.5 mg/L
NO3: 0.2 mg/L

Since these levels seemed to be below what I would consider alarming, I didn't change any water, and ran the skimmer a bit more conservatively. Here's a shot of 24hrs of skimmate on Day 3:

1961639026513227420wv2.jpg


About the corals: I was using the Alcyonium as a readout for overall water quality, watching the polyps each day to see how they fared. I figured that if they looked happy the water quality was probably OK, a backup to my testing. The Alcyonium had arrived a bit banged up and polyps didn't open in the middle of the colony. Over the span of the last week, the coral has healed nicely and all polyps are out and very well extended. However, the Montis never opened up and didn't make it, nor would I expect SPS shipped dry to do so.

The Alcyonium towards the bottom of the photo on day 3 (sorry for the poor pics, it's my phone):

1948517516468762770ru4.jpg


you can see how not all the polyps open...

onward...

Day 4:
NH4: 0.0 mg/L
NO2: 0.5 mg/L
NO3: 0.0 mg/L

This result was surprising. Since the rock was uncured and I hadn't changed the water for 48 hrs, I expected everything to go up, or at least SOME values to go up, not drop like this. NOT COMPLAINING THOUGH. Again, I didn't see a reason to change the water.

Day 5:
NH4: 0.0 mg/L
NO2: 0.1 mg/L
NO3: 0.0 mg/L

Again, surprised but not complaining. Again, no water change.

a pic of the tank at this time:

1951572196479066680lx2.jpg


Because of all the detritus and the water quality being ok, I added 2 Astrea sp. and Nassarius sp. snails to help clean off the rock. Will this muck things up? I thought maybe it would. Luckily it didn't.

Days 6, 7, 8:
NH4: 0.0 mg/L
NO2: 0.0 mg/L
NO3: 0.0 mg/L

Until this point there has been very little die-off, as evidenced by the nitrogen cycle parameters and I'd venture to say that every little bit probably helped.

day 8

1972513796550231070ii3.jpg


The rock is still a bit dirty, the snails are moving like... well, snails. Once it's fully cleaned off and if I can get a decent camera maybe people can see how nice the rock really is. You can see the Alcyonium in the bottom right quarter of the tank - it's so much happier looking!! Also, the Halimeda has strted growing new buds. The coraline started bleaching overall on day 3 or 4, but colored back up noticeably by day 8. Yes, the lighting arrangement of the pics is a bit different, but it really has changed.

after about 2 months the tank is started to take on that covered-with-life look that i originally wanted. some of the stuff, i don't even know what it is. but other things, like branching or plating coralline, odd little macroalgae, sponges, lotsa pods, etc. are really thriving. i'm curious to see what successfully competes; as i mentioned, the pink macroalgae didn't make it, but other things have replaced it.

so here's a little spot of Dictyota. The dark red coralline took on a gold hue at certain angles, and strangely, pods are constantly "grazing" on it (you can see them at the upper right), and grazing on that only. it's really weird. i also have these golden trumpet/mushroom type growths, an example of something growing out which i am completely clueless about. i don't know if they're the ends of noctrnal tubeworms, sponges, corals, i just don't know:

159rv9.jpg


this next one has a lot of variety as well. to the far left is a very dark red, velvety form of macroalgae which has luckily survived. it's actually growing very slowly and is very beautiful. above and to the left the Alcyonium is some nice scrolling, plate coralline, and to the right of that is some nice branching coralline which is growing rather rapidly - it's breaking off every now and then and spreading around the tank. the Alcyonium is growing really nicely as well, and the polyps extend so far that it has a very bushy appearance, waving in the current. Also, Dictyota:

169sl6.jpg


the M. spumosa. it has grown to attach to the rock at lower right, and is growing nicely:

158yj5.jpg


the "before" shot from a few weeks earlier, to see three weeks of growth:

1121yg1.jpg


just a general shot. there's a funny little macroalgae that looks like a head of lettuce, and another which is a very hard mass of tangled wires (closeup in the first photo):

164qv5.jpg


fts:

1711qm7.jpg
 

olaf1

Reefer
Nice setup Jason!

My Soft Cycle Startup:
I start with boxed ocean water, a mixture of CaribSea Sea-Pure, Nature's Ocean Nutri-Seawater, and Catalina Water Company 100% Real Ocean Saltwater until the aquarium and sump are full.
Then I add a mixture of "live sand"; Nature's Ocean Reef Sand and Reef Substrate, CaribSea Ocean Direct Live Sand, for the majority if not for all the substrate. If I am looking for a little different mixture I will add another type of "Live Sand" substrate.
Examples:
Nature's Ocean
-Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Black Beach
-Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Natural White #0
-Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Natural White #1
-Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Samoa Pink
-Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Samoa Pink
CaribSea Arag-Live
-Special Grade Reef Sand
-Indo-Pacific Black
-Fiji Pink
-Bahamas Oolite
-West Caribbean Reef
-Florida Crushed Coral
-Bimini Pink
This all depends on what type of Corals, Inverts, and Fish are going into the aquarium.

I start the pumps for water flow and and fitration.
Then I go and pick up my live rock from my distributor which had it flown in straight out of the ocean from a live rock farm in Bali. Tons of grown on the rock but also tons of hitchhiker.
(Mantis shrimp, many different crabs, snails, chitons, amphipods, copepods, tanaids, isopods, sponges, macroalgae, microalgae, anemones, polyps, LPS & SPS corals, soft corals, fan worms, many differnt types of worms, different types of molluscs, nudibranchs, vermetid snails, star fish, sea squirts, Etc.)
I usually pick off the bad if I see them.
It is a 40 minute to an hour drive from my distributor to the aquarium.
So the rock isn't out long.
When my distributor get it he puts it into his liverock tank which is a long tank, as long as his greenhouse and four feet wide and three feet deep.

So I add the Live Rock to the aquarium. Bali live rock is very light and porous so the first time I did this I over ordered. I did the 1.5 to 3 lbs per gallon. OOPS! My orders are usually 500lbs to 1000 lbs. That order was 46 boxes. Good thing, I had a few extra tanks at home along with a 100-gallon bin.

After adding the Live Rock I usually leave the lights off for 24 to 48 hours.
I then go back and check to see what has crawled off the rock before I turn the lights on and remove any dead or dying things.
I do a water test and usually everything is just a trace.

I then turn the lights on, they are set on a timer so I don't have to ever mess with them again.

After a month of checking the water the highest level I get is from the nitrates which peak slightly then usually go back down. That is usually at the 1 to 2 week period.

I setup aquariums for commerical contract and luxury homes. Almost all of the aquariums are at least 125-gallon and up.
The next setup, I will take tons of pictures and do testing every day like Jason did. I will also try to catalog everything (livestock) I find on the rock and what livestock I put into the aquarium.
 

Bob5920

Reefer
This was a very fascinating article, with one major problem.

You got me excited to try it out for myself.

I'm totally impressed on how many different twists and turns can be generated with this hobby. I mention to people that I'm into marine aquariums and they give me a simple nod. If only they can appreciate something like this.

Bob
 

walla2butterfly

Active Reefer
Jason, Some nice looking rock.
Bob, yea, if your not into SW, you just dont get it. The closes I come is someone asking "is that hard", but occasionally I get someone that starts asking questions because they are thinking about going salt.

Also, I would love to try this soft cycle but on a big tank? My honey dumbs all the buckets of water for me ( in and out) when he is around ( such a gentleman), he would probably run away from home on a 100+ tank. Or would you have longer between water changes? ( to equal it out) do small water changes? or what Tami
 

java1

Active Reefer
walla2butterfly":94rb2jro said:
Jason, Some nice looking rock.
Bob, yea, if your not into SW, you just dont get it. The closes I come is someone asking "is that hard", but occasionally I get someone that starts asking questions because they are thinking about going salt.

Also, I would love to try this soft cycle but on a big tank? My honey dumbs all the buckets of water for me ( in and out) when he is around ( such a gentleman), he would probably run away from home on a 100+ tank. Or would you have longer between water changes? ( to equal it out) do small water changes? or what Tami

yeah, i'm beginnng to plan out a larger system and the logistics are bothering me because:

1) overnighting rock in dozens-hundreds of pounds is going to get pricey fast
2) the water changes are going to be hell.

I look at it this way though - If the rock is really good quality, very fresh, and travels well, the die off should be minimal. So reallly big changes might not be necessary. If you use the ammonia level as your determinant for changes, say for example you arbitrarily pick any level over 0.5ppm as unacceptable, and do the appropriate math, then perhaps you might have to only change maybe 30% at a time if it hits around 0.8ppm every 2-3 days for example.

I'm also considering setting up a temporary continuous waterchange system for the cycle, maybe with a 55 gallon trashcan filled with freshly mixed water and an overflow plumbed to a hose/drain, constantly pumping in fresh water at a slow rate while simultaneously draining it very slowly. Still thinking this over, but I think it can be done with a reasonable amount of effort on a larger system.
 
I really find the soft cycle concept appealing, far preferable to conventional live rock curing, which kills off so much life.

One idea for cycling a larger system which has occurred to me, but which I have not tried, is to use fishless cycling to establish a remote sand bed (in a refugium/sump) prior to introducing the live rock into the tank. The sand bed would be seeded with live sand, substrate from an established aquarium, etc. The intention would be to have some additional biological filtration in place, supplementing what’s present in the live rock itself, to help process the nutrients from any die off.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
 

walla2butterfly

Active Reefer
Okay, Jason I think I see what you are saying, and I am thinking "really good test kits", and yes some continuous freshwater in flow would be good

James, I am not sure, Are you talking about a pre-establish refugium/sump that would cycle the tank?
Tami
 

wade1

Advanced Reefer
Personally, I have started almost all of the tanks I have installed over the past few years using existing sand/rock as seed to kickstart a cycle. I rarely have had a cycle that lasted more than a week or two and very little die-off in the rock. One key though, is high quality rock that isn't already mostly dead.
 

walla2butterfly

Active Reefer
Where do you usually get your LR from?
Guess one of my problems is the more "Live" it is the more "things" it has on it that "I" would have to pick off that I dont want in my tank. mmm Wonder if that is something I can get "honey" to do?
 

wade1

Advanced Reefer
There are a few sources of really fresh liverock around depending on where you want to acquire it from - indo/pacific or carribean.

I live near Reefscience and he's always had an exceptionally fresh rock selection. But there are many others as well.

As for picking things off the rock - usually a quick going over with a toothbrush/scrub brush is all you need. It breaks off any loose(ie- dead) sponges, macro algaes and generally removes a little of the debris. Everything else can stay put.. remember that diversity is good! (with a few exceptions, very little comes off of rock that you really don't want in the tank)
 

olaf1

Reefer
Today, I took apart one of my clients aquariums because he had been losing fish and inverts slowly since May when it was first setup.
The aquarium is a 150-gallon acrylic peninsula (60"L x 24"W x 24"H).
It has a 33-gallon sump with a protein skimmer and a UV sterilizer.
I usually do 10% - 20% water change once a month and do maintenance on it weekly.
This client over feeds his fish! I am constantly telling him to stop or he is going to kill everything and that he is making more work for me. He finally stopped after losing all but 2 rock anemones almost all of the coral polyps.
Within in the first week of setup I noticed a Mantis Shrimp a "smasher" I grabbed the rock that it was in and tried jumping out but only made it to the floor.
Today I took all of the rock out and freshwater dipped all of it and then placed the rock with the coral and invert growth into buckets of tank water.

After dipping all of the rock and picking with probes I got out 12 crabs. I found a small porcelain which was returned to the aquarium. I also returned all the hermit crabs and one Emerald Mithrax Crab which my client purchased. They originally purchased 4 Emerald Mithrax Crab they only have one left.
There were ten different types. Three looked like some type of Mithrax crab, having a disc at the end of the claws. One was black and smooth, no hair on its legs. This was one of the largest crabs the carapace is 1.5" wide and the arms with the claws each reach out 2" from the body. The next one look similar but the color is a deep green with hairy legs and the last one the carapace is mottled. brown in color with hairy legs.
there were 8 Red Eyed Reef Crab, Eriphia smithi. These were the hardest to get out some I ended up having to break them to get them out. That wasn't easy since they are rock hard. These are the one that have been leaving the clam shells on the sand bed.
Only have a few clams left, not the beautiful "giant" clams more of the rock boring clams and others.
The other group are more white with red on their carapace claws are white with black tips. These are also all different in claw structure color tones and carapace shape. Some had one claw that was larger "crushing" and one that was thinner. others had both claws looked like they could do damage.
I found two other crabs they were on the smaller side. their legs were longer and their carapace was more round and the claw arms were short with small claws. Black tips on the ends of the claws. One was cream colored and hairy and the other was orange and smooth.
I also took out a chiton since this is an acrylic aquarium I didn't want the side to get a groove chewed into the side by the chiton's radula. I took the chiton home and put it into my nano cube.
I wish there was a place that had pictures of crabs in a database so I could id these all.
I didn't find any pistol shrimp or mantis shrimp.
I also found tons of snails mostly these really small black and cream-yellow striped snails - not bumble bee. Also found some longer shell snails like Cerith snails but white and black striped and spotted.
I ran out of time so I put all the live rock back into the aquarium and tomorrow I am going back to re-arrange it.
The water was very dirty since all of the over feeding, OMG! This is why I couldn't continue. I brought 20 gallons of saltwater with me and changed out all of 20 gallons. I think I am going to have to do another water change tomorrow, another 20 - 25 gallons.
I wish my client was there to see how bad the aquarium looked after removing the live rock. Then he could see all of the waste from over-feeding.
 

olaf1

Reefer
Here is a picture of what the orange one looks like: Conleyus defodio
24.jpg

and the other one that is similar: Glabropilumnus laevimanus
50.jpg
 

olaf1

Reefer
Majority of the crabs were: Actaeodes tomentosus
1.jpg

and have one that looks like this: Atergatis floridus
2.jpg

also some that looked like this: Lophozozymus edwardsi
25.jpg
 
walla2butterfly":1xmactkb said:
James, I am not sure, Are you talking about a pre-establish refugium/sump that would cycle the tank?
Tami

Exactly. Give the sand bed nutrients and time to cycle and establish microbial colonies before the display part of the system is set up. When the live rock is added, there will still be an adjustment to the nutrient levels and microbial communities, basically a second cycling of the system. But my thinking is that, with the sand bed already up and running, the nutrient spikes would be smaller, thereby minimizing stress on the organisms on/in the rock. The goal, just as with the big water changes in Jason’s nano tank, is preserving the amount and diversity of life in the system. Like I wrote before, I haven’t actually tried it, it’s just something I’ve thought about.
 

java1

Active Reefer
James S. Baker":1ogjge04 said:
walla2butterfly":1ogjge04 said:
James, I am not sure, Are you talking about a pre-establish refugium/sump that would cycle the tank?
Tami

Exactly. Give the sand bed nutrients and time to cycle and establish microbial colonies before the display part of the system is set up. When the live rock is added, there will still be an adjustment to the nutrient levels and microbial communities, basically a second cycling of the system. But my thinking is that, with the sand bed already up and running, the nutrient spikes would be smaller, thereby minimizing stress on the organisms on/in the rock. The goal, just as with the big water changes in Jason’s nano tank, is preserving the amount and diversity of life in the system. Like I wrote before, I haven’t actually tried it, it’s just something I’ve thought about.

i think it's a good idea, and later, if you end up adding good quality (i.e., fresh with little die-off, or well tank-cured and mature) live rock, i would bet that you wouldn't see any spike in any of the n-cycle parameters AT ALL.

it would basically be a "biological buffer" system, along the lines of the chemical benefits of adding water volume through a sump; the additional capacity for buffering, biological or chemical, is greater than the volume of water or microbial capacity of the display alone.
 
walla2butterfly":10y38ete said:
Okay, Jason I think I see what you are saying, and I am thinking "really good test kits", and yes some continuous freshwater in flow would be goodTami

I’m getting a bit off of our microbiological topic here, but I’d be interested to know if anyone has any opinions on the relative merits, or lack thereof, of various test kits and meters. What is a “really good test kit”? Which types work best? Which brands are most accurate?
 

wade1

Advanced Reefer
There are a number of more expensive, laboratory grade, test kits out there. But, in all reality, you don't need any of them unless you just like to track your chemistry.

I've maintained tanks for a long time, and the only parameters that matter are in the beginning in a reef tank, and they are typically just the nitrogenous wastes. Once a tank is established, if you've done the setup properly, you won't have any detectable P, no detectable N, and the rest should remain in balance with regularly occurring water changes. In order to measure those compounds, you need equipment you can't get off the shelf.

If you want some of the best, look at the Hach kits.
 

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