Running Out of Oil..

[Slamajamajama]

We are Running Out of Oil ...

Its been noted that in 2004 we have gone past the estimated "peak" of oil production in the Middle East oil fields and we are now on the down swing on these fields. Alaska, is down 75% in oil production from its peak....they are using more energy to heat the ground just to harvest "heavy/thick" oil thats frozen under ground...the cost has been on the rise and will continue to go higher on these fuels.

With Global Warming a constant concern, as frozen methane melts and adds more to the atmosphere.... u all know the rest.

This opens a can of worms, because along with energy and environmental concerns, it also becomes an ethical question ie; should we be taking corals/fish from already stressed environments?

As a reef hobbiest, we consume a large amount of that energy for our reefs, I wonder if the time came (dont be fooled, it will) what we would do to react. What technologies could we use to continue in the same fashion as we do today? Do we try to initiate change now, before that time comes?

Would we be forced to abandon our reefs?

Your well thought out thoughts...? :smoker:

 

[fritz]

I think that we've come leaps and bounds from 20 even 10 years ago in this hobby. Everything is market driven and people, in this high energy cost world, have been looking for lower wattage alternatives for their tanks. The threads are full of people spending extra money for a device that will use less electricity over its lifetime. From Tunze/vortechs for flow to lower wattage skimmers and T5s and so on.

In addition the number of captive raised fish and corals is growing and growing. Most online retailers have pretty large selections of captive raised animals. Also here on MR I think there's only 4 or 5 people that buy corals wild. The rest get frags from those 4 or 5 people, thereby lowering the impact made by this group as a whole. If everyone got their corals from other tanks it would be even better.

The only side of this hobby that I don't see improving is the money side of it. My current tank that I'm setting up I got for free. All of my live rock I got for free. I even have fish and corals that people are offering me for free. Most of my equipment was either free or dirt cheap. Granted I've given tons of stuff away for nothing so my freebies were me calling in favors but theres a point in this. Our hobby is very expensive and that can be offset two different ways, by trying to make a buck at it to compensate for the money you've spent, or a "pay it forward" communal approach.

A few people on here and I have never exchanged money for anything. They come to my home and leave with buckets of stuff for free. I go to their home and I leave with buckets of stuff for free. It's the relationship that we have and we help each other out as fellow reefers. This behavior is a positive one that isn't damaging to our hobby or the environment. A coral that I get for free, I would be more inclined to give away frags for free. Which in turn a recipient may give these future frags away for free as he got them for free.

In contrast to that, I could setup some tanks in my basement and purchase a vendor account. I could order wild caught stuff and sell it to people here to bankroll my hobby. People would buy them and I would order more, and more and etc. Is that evil? No. It's no worse than your LFS. There's nothing wrong with making a buck, that's no what I'm saying. People who setup shop take risks, spend money and time and do bring value to the hobby and they should get paid for that. However we as hobbyists have control over what kind of operation they run and this goes for your LFS too.

If I buy corals from someone who orders wild caught stuff, with no QT or treatment of any kind, I'm getting pests 100%. If I don't buy them and let them no why I don't buy them and others do as well you better bet they will start to QT and treat etc. The same goes for livestock. If we demand and request captive options when available that's what will sell and it if sells that's what vendors will stock. You can vote with your wallet or pocketbook and it will make a difference. Captive stuff always fares better anyway. I always go for captive when I can because I'm cheap and I know it has a far better chance of living and thriving which in the long run makes it much cheaper.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Mike, while the intentions of this post are good the biggest hurdle you have to get over is the biggest abuser of wasting any and all power, gasoline electricity steem etc is the government. So I hate to sound like the pessimist but it is almost futile to even try unless you get elected officials without the "King can do no wrong" Mentality into office. And that will take forever.

 

[Slamajamajama]

The question, maybe vaguely posted is...

What if, the government, had to ration ie; brown outs, because of lower output of crude around the world and what our reaction would be...thats the question.

Fred, id like someone to sticky that post somewhere for a guide on how to be a good reefer in our community...ty

 

[ming]

If it came to it, they would build more Nuclear Reactors.
If the technology becomes feasible, then Nuclear Fission Reactors

 

[fritz]

If it came to it, they would build more Nuclear Reactors.
If the technology becomes feasible, then Nuclear Fission Reactors

Or fissable maybe.

Nuclear is good it's clean and it's safe. Our Navy has been using it for decades and you never hear of a sub or destroyer going cherynobyl. Most of Europe also uses nuclear and has for decades. They however reburn the waste in the reactor thereby making it far less dangerous with a MUCH smaller half life. They also process it into solid rods so it can be safely stored.

The issue is that the world's energy consumption is too large for nuclear to be the answer. There just isn't enough nuclear material world wide to fill it.

 

[Reef Mongoose]

Sun light gentlemen, we can use the same energy source our corals use, photovoltaic cells are becoming more efficient everyday. The technology has been around for quite some time but now it is actually becoming realistic to use. They are expensive upfront but pay for themselves in a manner of years. If you cover your roof with them you can power your entire house including your reef. The way things are going someday the reefs in our tanks might be all that is left.

 

[fritz]

Solar power has potential but we are a LONG way off from that being viable. I've seen many homes built with more than just a solar panel roof and there isn't much electricity compared to what we're used to. You also have the issue of how to store it for rainy days. People complain about nuclear waste but batteries are pretty bad too.

Solar Power is probably our best shot long term but until the technology progresses far enough we need something for the mean time.

 

[Reef Mongoose]

As far as solar being the answer for our country, yeah, definatly not.However, it is a good way for each of us to reduce the power we need from the grid and we can use it as a bridge to the next energy source, whatever that maybe.
The problem with nuclear waste is that it has to be stored in cool water which needs to be run through a chiller (slightly larger than the ones we use) to be kept cool. That in itself requires electricity to run and the waste has to kept like this for years before it can be removed and it is still radioactive for decades after that.
Basicly, no technology that we have right now is the final answer. All we can do is try to offset our power use with as much renewable energy as we can until we find a better answer.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Earth 2 "Codename : Bob "

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RR65hc-_kRY

 

[jackson6745]

The only thing that's going to take me out of this hobby would be money. If I can't afford to pay for electricity or maintenance because of drastic price changes (in all aspects)due to oil costs I would pack it in. I would have no problem only keeping aqacultured livestock if the reefs were in fact stressed.
In the big picture, our reef tanks are the least thing we should be concerned with.

 

[ming]

Its a combination of all of the above.
And Nuclear material (Plutonium) is man made which is made from Uranium, and as for Uranium "It occurs in most rocks in concentrations of 2 to 4 parts per million and is as common in the Earth's crust as tin, tungsten and molybdenum. It occurs in seawater, and could be recovered from the oceans if prices rose significantly."

Hydrogen/Gas/Electric can be used in combination depending upon need/portability/demand

Solar power can supplement

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

I really love what Fritz said about the morality of the how to make reef hobby less a stress to the natural system.

However, I really don't think nuclear is a good choice for the danger of mad men in ALL governments-including ours. The more we know about nuclear energy the more likely we know how to make more powerful weapon. Yeah, EVERY GOVERNMENT say they are not into weapon but look who has the most nuclear weapons to bomb the earth 20 times or 100 times over?

Solar is a good place to study more, one of my supplier in LA, is using solar cells over the top of their 15,000 sq ft facilities, they cut the electric bills by half since using them and at peak time, the meter actually turn backwards to feed the grid. So far solar is expensive because, we are not geared in large to produce them in volume . Many states have recently made incentives for installing solar cells and legislations to made utility companies to buy back electricity from solar houses(not without a fight though-many lobbyists protest about these to the current administration). Equipment over those states are MUCH cheaper than us. Of course not all of us are blessed, living tall skycrappers of 45 stories and a limited space facing the sun, we can hardly have enough power from solar system in cities.

 

[ellebelle]

What a thoughtful post, Fred. I agree with you on all points.

 

[ming]

Nuclear Fission is the combination of atoms, as opposed to splitting.
It would essentially be an even more cleaner version of Nuclear power because there is no radioactive waste.
Its still in the experimental phase

 

[Reef Mongoose]

you have that backwards my friend, Nuclear Fission is what reactors do right now. Research is being done on Nuclear Fusion which is the type of reaction the powers the sun.

 

[Killerdrgn]

It's not even just nuclear fusion that is the problem, we've already accomplished that for hydrogen bombs. The actual problem is sustained controlled nuclear fusion.
Problem 1: Fusion requires immense heat, pressure, and energy to create the proper fusion conditions. Scientists are currently working on making it cheaper of all three to get there so we can sustain the reaction.
Problem 2: Once you set off a fusion reaction how do you contain it so it doesn't just swallow and fuse everything in it's path. We've all seen Spiderman 2 and what happens to Doctor Octopus when he couldn't control his reaction.

But back to the point on hand the only way we can "solve" the peak oil problem is not to just dismiss solar as being too costly or nuclear as too dangerous. We need to use a combination of technologies to start to chip away at the problem. If everyone starts buying solar they become cheaper, if we take put online one nuclear plant we can start taking off the oil plants, If more people start using hydrogen fuel cells we'll see more hydrogen refueling stations. We need to start chipping away at the problem now.

Then we can start tackeling the next global crisis of the depletion of our usable drinking water.

 

[Reef Mongoose]

you are correct, the problem currently with nuclear fusion is sustaining and controlling the reation

 

[ming]

you have that backwards my friend, Nuclear Fission is what reactors do right now. Research is being done on Nuclear Fusion which is the type of reaction the powers the sun.

You are correct :teeth:

 

[KathyC]

Nuclear power scares many people, even though (as pointed out) it has been safely used in many countires for years, but nobody wants it in their backyard. Solar power is acceptable to most, still highly priced but almost within reach of the average homeowner with the rebates offered. The fission/fusion solution..I don't see this as something we'll see during our lifetime as a widely acceptable method of generating power.
Wind? Again, when solutions like this pop up, again the response by most in the US is 'not in my backyard'.
What was the profit last year for Exxon/Mobil $300 BILLION dollars.?
Money is power.
Power is money.
I don't think the folks in charge will be knocking themselves out anytime soon looking for a so called 'solution' to our further raping of the Earth.

I too like what Fred said regarding the ethical aspect of our hobby and would like to think that I participate in that in my own small way. I believe that the members here help to contribute to less environmental damage to our reefs through the sharing of knowledge that aids us in keeping our coral and fish alive longer and in a healthy state so that replacement directly from our natural resource is lessened.

I don't think the national govenrment will be forced to ration through brown outs. I think that many of the American people will continue to shell out outrageously high amounts of money to pay for whatever power is available, because so many feel entitled to continue to live in the manner to which they are accustomed. And they will happily sell it to us.
While the rest of us, who are more in touch with the resources of our precious planet, will try and make whatever consessions we can, in whatever small way that we can, to maintain our reef tanks with the respect they require and deserve from us.

Perhaps we should have a forum here where we can gather some of the best ideas on how we can implement ways to cut some of the electrical consumption of our tanks. I've seen threads on the necessity (or lack thereof) of high flow through our sumps, and those great 19 w compact fluorescent sump bulbs..lower wattage pumps and so forth.
Maybe Manhattan Reefs needs a 'Green Reef Forum' to share ideas and help foster the saving of more of our natural resources...