I have a 15gal high tank with 18lbs of live sand and 12lbs of live rock so far. My cycle is ending and my water is at 0 ammonia, off the charts nitrites, and 20ppm Nitrates. My question is do I keep my biowheel which is in the eclipse hood or ditch it?
Biowheel or not?
- Thread starter Chronicles
- Start date
Depends. If you plan on putting corals in this tank, then definitely ditch it. Bio-wheels are nitrate factories, and the space where it was can be used has like a mini pod refugium. If yoiu plan on just having fish and maybe an invert or two, you don't HAVE to ditch it, IMO. Hope this helsp! 
The biowheel may help out in establishing the necessary aerobes until the nitrites are under control, by providing the required surface area. 18lbs of LR is quite enough though, so I can't figure out why its not working. Possibly the current fish bioload is too high for this stage of bacterial growth. How long has your cycle been going on? I ask this because typically the aerobic bacteria that oxidize the initial ammonia (nitrosomonas?) coincide with the ones who oxidize nitrite (nitrobacter?) and its interesting that your balance has not been reached yet. Id remove a fish or two for another week or two, leave in the biowheel for another two weeks, then introduce the fish back in and eventually remove the biowheel because after the LR is seeded the biowheel surface area will not be needed.
Start by lowering your fish load, as this is the sole source of all nitrite and ammonia. Ill keep thinking about it for awhile, somethings out of whack. Mat?
B
Start by lowering your fish load, as this is the sole source of all nitrite and ammonia. Ill keep thinking about it for awhile, somethings out of whack. Mat?
B
Well I'll make the long story short. Over a period of 3 weeks I had gotten 2 damsels and a clown fish in a 10gal, then I had problems. So I bought a 15gal high (to still use my new eclipse hood) and took 2 damsels back. All I have now is the clown. I only have 12lbs of live rock....it's 18lbs of live sand. Anyway about 48hrs ago my clown had "popeye" I'm guessing since being so stressed durring the cycle. At that time ammonia was at like 1ppm and falling down. So I moved him to a QT tank and he's getting medicine. My nitrites have been on the rise since the beginning. When I moved to the new tank I used 9gal fresh water and 6gal from the old tank, so I would still have ammonia etc in the water and I didn't have to start over. So right now nothing is in my tank except 2 snails.
Keep fish out of that tank for awhile. It's completely unnecessary to have fish in the tank during your cycle if nitrite or ammonia is even detectable. The die off on the LR will provide the fuel for the bacteria to proliferate. I would never add a fish in the first 4 weeks. 6-8 weeks is probably a much safer bet. Also, in the future, damsels and clowns tend to bicker amongst each other, especially in small volumes. What species of clown is it? You may consider getting your clown a mate, when your tank is ready and able to handle another fish in a month or two.
There can only be as many nitrates as nitrites and amonia were in the water. If it is a factory this simply means not enough anaerobic filtration. This is just my take on this issue. I am sure some will disagree.
JJ
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JJ
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I'm going to wait the cycle out and then take it out. Besides I can use that nice little pocket for other stuff like my SeaChem Purigen and Phos-zorb. Or maybe my Coralife Nitrate Controler (yes it works wonders, but nothing is better then water changes!)
I thought I'd comment on the label "nitrate factories". A biowheel certainly doesn't cause more nitrates to be produced in a tank. It does, however, cause higher levels of nitrates to be released into the water column. This is because the conversion of nitrite to nitrate occurs in the absence of any area where denitrification takes place. In order for nitrate produced by bacteria on the biowheel to be converted to nitrogen gas in anaerobic areas of the sandbed or live rock, it must travel through the water column to get there. Here, it can be utilized by nuisance algae, corals, clams, etc. Usually, though, it is much more efficiently utilized by algae.
In the absence of a biowheel, the mineralization of proteins, other organics, etc. to nitrate occurs in close proximity (on the surface of LR, in the upper layers of the SB) to anaerobic areas where it can then be reduced to nitrogen gas without traveling through the water column to get there.
This is not to say a tank with a biowheel could not have a reading of zero nitrates when its water is tested. Actually, we have a newly set up tank here on campus with an incredible outbreak of Valonia nuisance algae. The water tests at zero nitrates because any nitrates produced are quickly consumed by the algae.
In the absence of a biowheel, the mineralization of proteins, other organics, etc. to nitrate occurs in close proximity (on the surface of LR, in the upper layers of the SB) to anaerobic areas where it can then be reduced to nitrogen gas without traveling through the water column to get there.
This is not to say a tank with a biowheel could not have a reading of zero nitrates when its water is tested. Actually, we have a newly set up tank here on campus with an incredible outbreak of Valonia nuisance algae. The water tests at zero nitrates because any nitrates produced are quickly consumed by the algae.
Dang Matt thats a detailed description. When I hear of 'factory' I am thinking of 'trap'--a place to catch and hold detritus or N-storing compounds vs letting them settle in a clean area so they can be physically removed. That was a neat description of the physical properties that govern the processing of nitrogen. What was the verdict on the reducing properties of LR> a while ago people were saying the inner surfaces housed the reducing bacteria and then some now are saying LR does not help much in reducing the compound NO3 into O and N gas> I dont know which is true. How is it Matt?
I had never heard that. I thought it was generally accepted that LR had anaerobic areas deep in the rock structure. There are folks who have tanks with no sandbed, just live rock, and zero nitrates without much algae. I'm guessing that nitrate must be getting reduced in the rock.
9:19 pm
Matt that really got me to thinking about the proximity of the aerobes vs. the anaerobes, what an important part of the combination to leave out. I never gave that any thought (the relationship of distance between the bacteria) you mentioned something that will really stick in my head
I am used to seeing nitrate cycling solely as a function of detritus.
this was my scheme: Detritus will have various proteins and compounds, all laden with nitrogen in the form of proteins and various compounds. Surface area, although necessary to support a certain density of bacteria, also works inversely to catch and hold detrital bits which continually break down yielding ammonia first (protein deamination) then oxidize to 'trite and finally to 'trate which can accumulate for the reasons you've mentioned. Imagine a canister filter that doesnt get cleaned often enough. Filterless marine tanks store less internal protein (unless you keep them very clean) so we can rely on the LR for all the needed surface area. Detritus is limited on LR because of our currents, and because it is easy to clean during a wchange (turkey baster).
A complete notion of the detritus/nitrate relationship requires the natural proximities you have mentioned, because the greater picture involves complete internal processing all the way to gas, not just an export regimen. hey Ive only been trained to think under one gallon, can you blame me for being narrow-minded
Matt that really got me to thinking about the proximity of the aerobes vs. the anaerobes, what an important part of the combination to leave out. I never gave that any thought (the relationship of distance between the bacteria) you mentioned something that will really stick in my head
I am used to seeing nitrate cycling solely as a function of detritus.
this was my scheme: Detritus will have various proteins and compounds, all laden with nitrogen in the form of proteins and various compounds. Surface area, although necessary to support a certain density of bacteria, also works inversely to catch and hold detrital bits which continually break down yielding ammonia first (protein deamination) then oxidize to 'trite and finally to 'trate which can accumulate for the reasons you've mentioned. Imagine a canister filter that doesnt get cleaned often enough. Filterless marine tanks store less internal protein (unless you keep them very clean) so we can rely on the LR for all the needed surface area. Detritus is limited on LR because of our currents, and because it is easy to clean during a wchange (turkey baster).
A complete notion of the detritus/nitrate relationship requires the natural proximities you have mentioned, because the greater picture involves complete internal processing all the way to gas, not just an export regimen. hey Ive only been trained to think under one gallon, can you blame me for being narrow-minded
Cool, I'm glad you learned something.
I don't consider detritus such a bad thing. Some of it accumulates in the low flow back corners of my tank, but I don't siphon it out. On the contrary, I see it as food for various inverts. In both back corners, I have an abundance of inverts, mostly bristleworms and feather dusters, that have either migrated there or just thrived more there because that's where food settles. IMO, it's better to have that detritus converted into bristleworm/feather duster gametes/growth than to have it trapped in a high flow, high oxygen area where bacteria will very quickly mineralize it to nitrate.
When I had a skimmer, I turkey basted my rocks every other day and the skimmer would go nuts for a while--a very easy and efficient way to get rid of excess detritus. Now that I am skimmerless I only baste the rocks when doing a water change.
I don't consider detritus such a bad thing. Some of it accumulates in the low flow back corners of my tank, but I don't siphon it out. On the contrary, I see it as food for various inverts. In both back corners, I have an abundance of inverts, mostly bristleworms and feather dusters, that have either migrated there or just thrived more there because that's where food settles. IMO, it's better to have that detritus converted into bristleworm/feather duster gametes/growth than to have it trapped in a high flow, high oxygen area where bacteria will very quickly mineralize it to nitrate.
When I had a skimmer, I turkey basted my rocks every other day and the skimmer would go nuts for a while--a very easy and efficient way to get rid of excess detritus. Now that I am skimmerless I only baste the rocks when doing a water change.
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