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Anonymous

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http://www.asianjournal.com/?c=186&a=19127

"We did two days of wild diving far from any civilization. Not a single fish was to be seen, not one," Charles Frew told Reuters after a trip to the waters off Leyte province in the Philippines last month.

Seems like some of the efforts that some people that come in this forum and preach are completely misdirected. What good is it that MAC or any other organization try and regulate the trade of MO when the food industry just ends up ravaging what is left of the reef?
 

mrmoo

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I've always wondered how much damage the MO industry does vis-a-vis other industries. Problem is the MO industry is very small compared to other industries such as the sea food industry, making the MO trade an easy defenseless scape goat. Do they even have lobbyists incase strict reforums are brought up by the govt? I think the OP has a valid question. What good is CITES and MAC if the majority of the damage is done by other industries. It's better to do something than nothing I suppose if MAC doesn't have the power to stop destruction from other industries.
 

Piero

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the seas are being ravaged from all sides, no doubt(see national geographic this month). Certainly the agricultural, industrial, and other non point-source influences are likely a majority of the causes, but that does not negate the need to be sustainable and responsible within our own trade. We are, after all, in more of a position to do something about the MO industry, than say, the agricultural industry.

But I still think on top of becoming sustainable and responsible, it would be great if the MO industry was also contributing in some way to larger reef and ocean conservation initiatives.
_________________
how to roll a joint?
 

Fish_dave

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The above quote is why it is so hard to take many of these eco-scientist types seriously. To say that they did not see even one fish is ridiculous. They may have not seen even one fish of the species that they were looking for but they had to have seen fish in general. I read the whole piece to see if it was quoted out of context and he says that they saw some nice corals but no fish. That is not possible. Even in totally destroyed reefs with no coral cover you will see a fish of some type. To say that they were diving reefs in the Philippines away from populated areas and did not see even one fish is a crazy statement and in my mind calls into question the rest of what they have to say.

Dave
 
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Anonymous

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I have to agree with Dave on this one. Not one fish? Coral cover? Something stinks in Denmark :lol:
 

PeterIMA

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It seems that those responding to the posting are taking one statement about persons diving off Leyte out of context. The context of the web link pertained to the live food fish trade mostly consisting of species of groupers and the Napoleaon wrasse. I would interpret the posting as implying that no groupers were seen rather than no fish of any kind were seen.

Dr. Terry Donaldson from the University of Guam conducted a survey of groupers at over 30 sites in the Philippines last year. He informed me that almost no groupers were seen at any of the sites (mostly situated in the southern Philippines). He concluded that groupers are becoming commercially extinct and that there are very few groupers left (at least in shallow water at depths less than 100 feet). This is due to overfishing and due to the use of cyanide. My paper on cyanide testing documented that groupers were being targeted by cyanide fishing (high proportion of fish tested had cyanide present) in the Philippines.

Peter Rubec
 

Kalkbreath

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"Basically it's been like a vacuum cleaner across the region,"
Large parts of reefs in the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia are becoming void of marine life as a result of overfishing and the use of cyanide to catch fish alive.
"We did two days of wild diving far from any civilization. Not a single fish was to be seen, not one," Charles Frew told Reuters after a trip to the waters off Leyte province in the Philippines last month.
"I was shocked, more than anything ... It's got strong currents, beautiful blue water. There are some bits of nice coral. But there's nothing,"
For some reason I think Peter is the only person who could walk away from reading this and feel they were strictly speaking about Grouper.
All science is political, trust no one.
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, Perhaps you are right. Steve Robinson described diving in the Danajon Banks between Cebu and Bohol in the mid 1980s and not seeing a single fish while swimming in a straight line for over a mile. So, areas devastated by cyanide and blast fishing can be devoid of fish (all fish). Obviously, this does not apply to all areas in the Philippines and Indonesia (there are still some good to excellent sites-mostly in protected areas). However, these good to excellent areas represent less than 5% of the total coral reef areas in these countries. Fishes also generally occur in degraded areas but are less abundant.

Peter
 
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Anonymous

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Um Peter two words, CORAL COVERAGE. Steve didn't see any coral in that devistated region, remember. I'm sure he'll chime in once he gets back.

Usually when there is coral, there is fish. No coral may equal no fish, but coral with out fish is pretty unheard of.

Devoid of marine life = no groupers? Since when did all other life get tossed out the window and only groupers considerred "marine life"?
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham, I am not sure about your last comments. Are you implying that the person who reported not seeing any fish in the web posting is correct? Do you mean to state that you believe it is possible that there were no fish found where they were diving? How can this be possible in Indonesia, the Philippines, and Malaysia?

My statements are more reasonable and are based on my own experience from having visited both Indonesia and the Philippines. It is not realistic to imply there are no fish left (none present anywhere)

Peter
 
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Anonymous

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<looks to left field and spots Peter>

Dude, Peter, look at my post above that ;) Remember it was YOU who miss read the article and belived the article stated no FOOD fish where found, or it implied that.

I'll try to break it down into something a PHD should be able to undestand :)

I am saying the if you find coral coverage, like mentioned in the article, you'll find fish.

What Steve saw in PI was not coral coverage, but rather a TOTAL devistated area ;) He saw now fish, nor any coral coverage, just RUBBLE!

No corals = no fish typically
Coral coverage= fish typically

Understand?

Your stance until Kalk called you on it was that both Dave and I where wrong and the article read differently to you then the rset of the world! Lucky for me, Kalk laid it all out in a very easily read post and you bowed down to it :)
 

dizzy

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I'm really surprised Thales didn't have any objections to Gresham's post. :? It seemed belittling to me. If you are going to make people play nice, then please apply it to everyone.
Thanks,
Mitch
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham, Actually, Steve observed areas in the Danajon Banks where there were intact corals that had been blitzed with cyanide. The corals were dead, but still standing. Areas with cyanide-blitzed corals were devoid of fishes. Other areas where blast fishing had occurred consisted of coral rubble. Steve's comment was that there were still aquarium fishes in areas associated with coral rubble impacted by blast fishing. It was the cyanide fishing that had erased all of the fishes, despite the fact that the corals were still standing (but were dead).

Peter Rubec
 
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Anonymous

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dizzy":3q0ohted said:
I'm really surprised Thales didn't have any objections to Gresham's post. :? It seemed belittling to me. If you are going to make people play nice, then please apply it to everyone.
Thanks,
Mitch

He is the one that for YEARS on this site has touted he's a PHD and at times has used it to look down at his nose at others. If you treat others like that, expect it back. I made no character assassinations, nor did I call him any names. As a scientist I expect more attention to detail out of him then others. It's his job and training to be detailed!

Besides the fact you mission against Thales is reconized as such and won't get much play my friend. You had a problem with Mary, John Brandt, Bookfish, James and now Thales, go figure. Seems like you simply have a problem with authority, rather then a problem with moderation :D
 

PeterIMA

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Effects of Cyanide on Coral Reefs (exerpt from Rubec 1987)
According to Robinson, if dynamite is the "one" in the one-two punch, cyanide may be the knock-out blow (McLarney 1985a,b). While dynamite kills some animals directly, it does mostly structural damage and leaves enough living coral to repopulate the reef eventually. With many large corals reduced to rubble, surviving food fishes desert a dynamited reef, but smaller aquarium fish hang on surprisingly well. A blasted reef does not have the beauty of a pristine coral reef environment, but as long as there is enough living coral, many of the angelfishes, damsels, butterflyfishes, clowns etc. will be there.

The best demonstration of the one-two punch is the Danajon Bank, which occupies much of the 24 to 32 km wide, 97 km long Bohol Strait, between the Islands of Bohol and Cubu (McLarney 1986). One of the greatest coral reef complexes in the world in terms of extent and, until recently diversity, it has fed the people of Bohol and Cebu for centuries.

The decline of the Danajon Bank began in the fifties with heavy dynamite usage (McLarney 1986). Yet, in the sixties when Gonzales, operating out of Cebu, pioneered the cyanide method, the Danajon, even after a decade of blast fishing, represented a bonanza for the entire aquarium fish trade. Af first Gonales had a monopoly, but it didn't take other collectors long to scope out his sites-and his methods-and Cebu became a major center of the business.

From an underwater perspective, the Danajon Bank is a disaster area (McLarney 1986). In many places, acres of corals have been toppled and shattered by explosions. Most of these prostrate corals, their standing fragments and even the remnants of structurally intact corals are dead and covered with algae. Robinson recounts instances of diving for a mile, in a straight line, and not seeing a single marketable fish. Dynamite broke up the structure of the reef, wrecked the esthetic and dispersed the food fish, but Robinson believes it was cyanide, patiently and repeatedly applied to one coral head after another, which erased not only aquarium fishes, but virtually the entire support system from small to large fishes.

Robinson (1984c) noted that each cyanide collector squirts about 50 coral heads per day and dives about 225 days per year. He estimates that there are 600 full time collectors and about 400 seasonal collectors (McLarney 1986). A simple extrapolation indicates that 1000 colletors blitz about 11 million coral heads per year or about 240 million coral heads ove the past 20 years. While it is not certain what the rate of mortality of coral heads is from being squirted with cyanide, the figures give some idea of the potential magnitude of the problem.

Robinson (pers. comm. 1985) maintains that it is possible to distinguish between coral heads which have been dynamited and those which have been blitzed with cyanide. Coral heads exposed to cyanide are usually dead, but retain intact coral skeletons, while corals which have been dynamited are fragmented. Robinson observed dead coral heads forming bare patches in reefs, down to a depth of 25 m. Many of the dead reefs were in isolated areas, far from river mouths and other sources of pollution. The types of coral heads preferred by marine fish in high demand by aquarists, were generally the ones which were dead, presumably due to the use of cyanide. Fish collecting with sodium cyanide (NaCN) affects those specific types of coral heads which provide shelter and spawning sites for coral reef aquarium fishes.

McLarney, W.O. 1985a. Diving with cyanide. Outside Magazine, Sept. p. 11-12.

McLarney, W.O. 1985b. Scandal in the saltwater aquarium trade, Philippines coral reefs dosed with cyanide. Not Man Apart, Nov.-Dec., p. 18-19.

McLarney, W.D. 1986. Collecting coral reef fishes in the Philippines: Information and analogue. Scientists debate: more reefs, more fishes die. Annals of Earth (Part 2 of 3) 4(2): 16-20.

Rubec, P. J. 1987. The effects of sodium cyanide on coral reefs and marine fish in the Philippines. Marine Fish Monthly 2(2) and 2(3).
 

Jaime Baquero

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Peter,

I had the opportunity of diving around Sn Salvador Island, province of Zambales in the Philippines. Corals were dead because cyanide use, they were standing, but NO fish around..NO ONE. The community had a protected area where no fishing was allowed and hundreds of fish were observed. There is a video.
 
A

Anonymous

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In many places, acres of corals have been toppled and shattered by explosions. Most of these prostrate corals, their standing fragments and even the remnants of structurally intact corals are dead and covered with algae. Robinson recounts instances of diving for a mile, in a straing line, and not seeing a single marketable fish. Dynamite broke up the structure of the reef, wrecked the esthetic and dispersed the food fish, but Robinson believes it was cyanide, patiently and repeatedly applied to one coral head after another, which erased not only aquarium fishes, but virtually the entire support system from small to large fishes.

Sounds like he guessed ("Robinson believes") that it was the juice and not the bombs ;) Either way, did he not say he did not see a single "markettable" fish?
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham, Robinson blew the whistle on cyanide fishing. Cervino et al (2003) proved that cyanide exposure kills corals after one application. Hence, what Robinson "believed" has been proven to be true.

Peter

Cervino, J. M., R. L. Hayes, M. Honovitch, T. J. Goreau, S. Jones, and P. J. Rubec. 2003. Changes in zooxanthellae density, morphology, and mitotic index in hermatypic corals and anemones exposed to cyanide. Marine Pollution Bulletin 46: 573-586.
 

dizzy

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GreshamH":d8eqcxu9 said:
Besides the fact you mission against Thales is reconized as such and won't get much play my friend. You had a problem with Mary, John Brandt, Bookfish, James and now Thales, go figure. Seems like you simply have a problem with authority, rather then a problem with moderation :D

Gresham the rules have changed on how the forum is moderated. I don't have anything against Thales. I think he wants people to be less rude and I think it is a reasonable request. I think you were rude to Peter. I suspect Thales also noticed this, but perhaps he cut you some slack since you are fellow club members. Just try and make your points in a little more polite manner. :D
 
A

Anonymous

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Should I follow your example? I'd be in trouble then ;)

How many times have you started a post with "Look". You ahve to know that is a rude way to start of a conversation Mitch :)
 

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