Sand vs No sand

[TaigC94]

So I’ve been having a lot of issues with my tank the past 1 1/2 years and I’ve ran out of ideas on what it could be. I’m now thinking its the sand bed. Its a 30gal tank with a DSB (which I believe is holding whatever is causing my issues). For those that have changed from sand to bare bottom, what is your experience afterwards?

 

[homegrowncichlid]

DSB has a purpose, but if you're not doing it properly, (needs to be close to 6 inches deep with plenum) then its just taking up space, getting blown around, etc. I have gone DSB in the sump rather in the main tank, which I keep pretty bare, except for a thin cosmetic layer. Issues with sand in the main tank, #1 is scratching the glass, which alone is a major problem. Blowing around is a distant #2. So moving it to out of the main tank fixes these issues.

Currently I don't run a DSB, since I've decided to use an algae scubber. The DSB has limited denitrifying and water buffering ability, but for practical purposes, our tanks are over loaded for it to be useful. In a 30 gallon (30x12 = 2.5 square feet), with a 6 inch bed=1.25 cubic feet of space gone, you would probably only have 2/3 space left. The DSB could support maybe 2-4 little fish, a few shrimps/crabs/snails, soft corals, maybe one organism which builds a Ca skeleton. If you add supplements and do water changes anyway, the DSB is just a waste of space.

I have run a 29 gallon tank in the past, with a DSB which I used to hold things temporarily, which given enough time when vacant, would bring water measurements back to zero. I've also used it to do water changes from the main tank, since it purified it. I would take out 5 gallons of clean water and dump in 5 gallons of tank water, nitrates and phosphates would revert to 0. Ca and alkalinity didn't increase.

There is no issue I can think of with bare bottom, except the zoos will spread out like weeds.

 

[Timbo]

I like sand. Keeping it 2” or less seems to work best.

 

[TaigC94]

I have a 4 inch bed now...

 

[BYU]

depends on what you are keeping
i got rid of my sand 5 years ago when i rebooted
best decision i made
i’m able to keeps nitrates and phosphates low and have high flow which i want with a sps dominant reef
i think my last tank just harbored all the detritus in the sand bed

 

[TaigC94]

depends on what you are keeping
i got rid of my sand 5 years ago when i rebooted
best decision i made
i’m able to keeps nitrates and phosphates low and have high flow which i want with a sps dominant reef
i think my last tank just harbored all the detritus in the sand bed

Im keeping mostly lps, i want monti caps though. I also have zoas

 

[Juano908]

depends on what you are keeping
i got rid of my sand 5 years ago when i rebooted
best decision i made
i’m able to keeps nitrates and phosphates low and have high flow which i want with a sps dominant reef
i think my last tank just harbored all the detritus in the sand bed

+1 on what BYU said.
I used to keep 2 to 2 1/2 inch SB but not anymore after running into a lot of problems on my last setup that I used sand.
I went bare bottom on my last tank and me bare bottom is way easier to control your nutrients levels and the benefits of cranking up your power heads for stronger water flow.
I'm in the process of setting up a 120 gals setup and I'm going bare bottom this time too.
Personally will never ever use sand bed anymore in my future setups.

Sent from my SM-A205U using Tapatalk

 

[FMF0331]

i like sand , gives it a more natural look. Although it may be a pain in the arse
i'm ok with a little more maintenance to keep my sand bed look

 

[homegrowncichlid]

I have a 4 inch bed now...

A 4 inch sand bed is not deep enough for denitrifying and buffering benefits. What you have now is a lot of nitrifying surface area. As you can already tell, you are experiencing all the negatives, without any positive benefits. Without the last 2 inches and the plenum, all the N has no place to go and is just accumulating in the biomass of the micro fauna in the sand bed, and then leaching back into the water, when they die. The purpose of the denitrifying is to release N2 as gas, out of the system.

Let me show you an old photo of my last set up, the 6" DSB is in the refugium/sump (where macros were growing), the 38 gallon tall tank (4 inches taller than yours), is below the 65 gallon main, which is bare bottom. With the DSB and the algae farming, it would be possible to maintain water quality, depending on fish load. As you can see the DSB takes up about 1/3 of the volume of the refugium.

 

[TaigC94]

A 4 inch sand bed is not deep enough for denitrifying and buffering benefits. What you have now is a lot of nitrifying surface area. As you can already tell, you are experiencing all the negatives, without any positive benefits. Without the last 2 inches and the plenum, all the N has no place to go and is just accumulating in the biomass of the micro fauna in the sand bed, and then leaching back into the water, when they die. The purpose of the denitrifying is to release N2 as gas, out of the system.

Let me show you an old photo of my last set up, the 6" DSB is in the refugium/sump (where macros were growing), the 38 gallon tall tank (4 inches taller than yours), is below the 65 gallon main, which is bare bottom. With the DSB and the algae farming, it would be possible to maintain water quality, depending on fish load. As you can see the DSB takes up about 1/3 of the volume of the refugium.

This entire time I was denying it was my sand bed. But this makes a lot of sense. I have nutrients out of wack, algae, and random coral death when home tests and ICP test show everything in good range (obviously not the nitrate, And I think the phosphate is a false reading at 0.0-0.1). That bed was actually laid in there about 5 years ago when I started this system. Everything grew great in the first 3.5-4 years. Now all the colonies I’ve had are really rough. Even with cleaning and 30% biweekly WX.

 

[homegrowncichlid]

If you were wanting to keep the sand and go with denitrification, what you could do is to place a barrier of some sort, a rock or a plastic wall, that would then be able to hold 6" of sand bed towards the back of the tank. Land scape it a bit, slope the terrain. then do a massive water change to remove all the gunk (nutrient release) you dig up from the front.

Note: from a purely engineering point of view, if you were to place a tall juice glass into your tank, and filled that up with 6" of sand, it would technically function. The DSB is really an artificial live rock, just more porous. (If you were to cut a live rock in half, it would be as if you dug a hole into claying/muddy beach at low tide. The outer layer would be oxygen rich, then you'll reach a black line/zone where it becomes anoxic, below which is where denitrification should occur. (This is where the sulfur smell would be, if there is no oxygen. With a DSB and plenum, the oxygen level almost drops to zero, but due to diffusion gradient, not quite zero, so sulfur doesn't replace the oxygen and there is no smell. If sulfur is used, that would be a poisonous gas, and turn your system into a swamp, yikes.)

 

[TaigC94]

If you were wanting to keep the sand and go with denitrification, what you could do is to place a barrier of some sort, a rock or a plastic wall, that would then be able to hold 6" of sand bed towards the back of the tank. Land scape it a bit, slope the terrain. then do a massive water change to remove all the gunk (nutrient release) you dig up from the front.

Note: from a purely engineering point of view, if you were to place a tall juice glass into your tank, and filled that up with 6" of sand, it would technically function. The DSB is really an artificial live rock, just more porous. (If you were to cut a live rock in half, it would be as if you dug a hole into claying/muddy beach at low tide. The outer layer would be oxygen rich, then you'll reach a black line/zone where it becomes anoxic, below which is where denitrification should occur. (This is where the sulfur smell would be, if there is no oxygen. With a DSB and plenum, the oxygen level almost drops to zero, but due to diffusion gradient, not quite zero, so sulfur doesn't replace the oxygen and there is no smell. If sulfur is used, that would be a poisonous gas, and turn your system into a swamp, yikes.)

Now what about doing large sand bags in a canister filter? Unfortunately the cabinet won’t fit a sump inside due to the dimensions (already tried) the tank that would fit is a 2.5-5 (couldn’t fit anything in there anyway). I absolutely could build a 6in deep sand bed in there. But would that support the system if i decide to lower the sand level in the tank? Its only supporting 2 fish, 4 hermits and 2 snails

 

[FMF0331]

still in the cycling stages

 

[homegrowncichlid]

Taig, adding sand bags anywhere wouldn't work, since it would then need to be 12 inches in diameter, a basketball, with a center where denitrification would happen. You might as well use live rock. The canister forces water though (search, fluidized sand bed) and that would not form the oxygen gradient from the high in water concentration, to almost zero at the bottom of the bed. You'll get lots of nitrifying bacterial in there though and as a compact system the fluidized sand bed works well. If you are adamant in keeping a DSB, as I tried to describe earlier, you could form a sand wedge towards the back of your aquarium (it would look like a triangle from side view). This terraformed slope if measure from the surface from either the top, or the front, would only need to be 6" deep (from top to bottom, and also from front to back) This will also form an anoxic zone, which would be a long "pipe" right along the back/bottom corner of the aquarium. I've set a simple drawing as an example, which you could do, without any additional costs. With this slope, you will be getting a full surface area, in only half the floor space.

For you though, this massive terraforming means you'll really be breaking down your tank, reseting your rock work, and finishing with a 100% water change to remove all the released nutrients, unless you want to move the sand from the front to the back slowly, over time. It may be simpler to add a algae scrubber, chaeto reactor, or a hang on back refugium (to grow macros) pretty compact, can be hung above/behind your aquarium. I believe the simplest solution for you is the chaeto reactor, which would set up like a canister filter or a hang on glass algae scrubber (santa monica design).

 

[BKLYN REEF]

I reefed for years with the old school DSB logic. I do like the look of sand but I also believe it contributes to built up organics and old tank syndrome. I went bare bottom about 4 hears ago and I love it. it is 1 easier to maintain, great for high flow and seems to not have high nitrate and phosphate issues. I also like the ability to siphon out all the detritus once a month and feel like i really cleaned the tank. I also have a Fuge with chaeto that I prune regularly and also use siporax in my sump now for the additional colonization of beneficial bacteria similar to a sand bed.
I don’t think I will Ever go back to a sand bed In my display.
My new goal is to have my barebottom covered in coralline algae instead.
I have considered a remote sand bed like 4 inches in refugium but don’t think it’s needed really.

 

[bvega789]

A 4 inch sand bed is not deep enough for denitrifying and buffering benefits. What you have now is a lot of nitrifying surface area. As you can already tell, you are experiencing all the negatives, without any positive benefits. Without the last 2 inches and the plenum, all the N has no place to go and is just accumulating in the biomass of the micro fauna in the sand bed, and then leaching back into the water, when they die. The purpose of the denitrifying is to release N2 as gas, out of the system.

Let me show you an old photo of my last set up, the 6" DSB is in the refugium/sump (where macros were growing), the 38 gallon tall tank (4 inches taller than yours), is below the 65 gallon main, which is bare bottom. With the DSB and the algae farming, it would be possible to maintain water quality, depending on fish load. As you can see the DSB takes up about 1/3 of the volume of the refugium.

Thanks guys, yall got me ready to remove all sand in my DT, and dump it in my sump, i love the natural sand look but im dont want any problems that can be avoided now!!

One question tho, what do you guys do with any fish or inverts that utilize the sandbeds???

 

[homegrowncichlid]

Thanks guys, yall got me ready to remove all sand in my DT, and dump it in my sump, i love the natural sand look but im dont want any problems that can be avoided now!!

One question tho, what do you guys do with any fish or inverts that utilize the sandbeds???

Any animal that needs sand, like a sand shifting snail, goby, dart/firefish, etc. should be moved also. They wouldn't do very well in a bare bottom tank or if there is only 1/2" of sand.

Personally, I use a coarse grade of sand, the #2 (more like fine gravel) in the main tank, less than 1" deep, for the following reasons.
1 doesn't blow around
2 cosmetics
3 gives surface area for pods to live (which the gobies and feed off of)
4 gives my dwarf and cerith snails a refuge from hermit crabs.

 

[bvega789]

Any animal that needs sand, like a sand shifting snail, goby, dart/firefish, etc. should be moved also. They wouldn't do very well in a bare bottom tank or if there is only 1/2" of sand.

Personally, I use a coarse grade of sand, the #2 (more like fine gravel) in the main tank, less than 1" deep, for the following reasons.
1 doesn't blow around
2 cosmetics
3 gives surface area for pods to live (which the gobies and feed off of)
4 gives my dwarf and cerith snails a refuge from hermit crabs.

I want to remove all the sand from my tank without causing a mini cycle.

if i remove all my livestock out the tank into sump and then remove sand will it will cause mini cycle????

 

[homegrowncichlid]

oh yes, I wouldn't call it a mini cycle though, it would be a full release.
1 move a cup of sand a day, no need to rush, leave everything else in, it will just be a matter of time to move everything, this will minimize the nutrient release and your system can probably keep up with it or with water changes. If you dig too deep and reach a black/anoxic zone below which there is no O2 and you smell sulfur, STOP. that's toxic gas, a killer. Hopefully your sand sifters have prevented this, but if they didn't, since the bed is getting thinner, they will be able to dig deeper and get into it.
2 the DSB needs to be 6 inches deep to have any affect, otherwise don't bother.
3 look up the Monaco system here's a link, I skimmed it, it looks detailed.

Jaubert’s Method, The ‘Monaco System,’ Defined And Refined

In this article I will focus on the simple method developed by Professor Jean Jaubert for establishing a reef aquarium.

reefs.com

 

[bvega789]

Thanks bro