i was told by my r/o manufacturer that r/o water can deteiorate garbage cans, i use a 20 gallon rubbermaid roughneck,i was told the container has to be food grade or it might melt from straight r/o water.i emailed rubbermaid ,but no response yet anybody heard of this. i'm having trouble with algae and thought this might be the cause since iv'e addressed every thing else
r/o container
- Thread starter kennethstowell
- Start date
ive had my two rubbermaid,roughneck cans about a year , i was told by aqua fx that they have heard from numerous custamers that there storage tank (garbage can) has melted, or released compounds into the r/o water, i emailed rubber made and they said that the cans i use wouldn't release anything harmful, but that they can't recommend them for that use, the containers i was told have to be food grade or they might release chemicals,i also read an add saying that the rubbermaid, brute cans are fda approved(food grade)does anybody have a thought on this
ive had my two rubbermaid,roughneck cans about a year , i was told by aqua fx that they have heard from numerous custamers that there storage tank (garbage can) has melted, or released compounds into the r/o water, i emailed rubber made and they said that the cans i use wouldn't release anything harmful, but that they can't recommend them for that use, the containers i was told have to be food grade or they might release chemicals,i also read an add saying that the rubbermaid, brute cans are fda approved(food grade)does anybody have a thought on this
This topic came up about a year ago on another board. At that time one of the members posted that he had tested his RO/DI water just after it was produced and it was fine. Then he tested it after a couple of days in his new Rubbermaid container and got high phosphate levels, etc. He contacted Rubbermaid and they recommended that he use only containers that meed USDA specs.
Here is their site: http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/action.lasso?-Response=wastepage.lasso&RCPNOsearch=2643-00
You will note that with that particular container (one of several different styles they sell) only the gray, white and yellow colors meet USDA requirements. Also, if you scroll down further you will see a link to specifications. They provide that on all of their products and it not only gives you a CAD drawing of the exact dimensions but it also tells you exactly what specs it will meet.
Ninong
Here is their site: http://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/action.lasso?-Response=wastepage.lasso&RCPNOsearch=2643-00
You will note that with that particular container (one of several different styles they sell) only the gray, white and yellow colors meet USDA requirements. Also, if you scroll down further you will see a link to specifications. They provide that on all of their products and it not only gives you a CAD drawing of the exact dimensions but it also tells you exactly what specs it will meet.
Ninong
So does that mean that we shouldn't be using them for our sumps either, if they are releasing phosphates into the water? I use a 10 gal drinking water cooler to store my RO/DI water, but my sump is a rubbermaid. Should I worry, I've had phosphate issues, but I always blamed them on my lack of RO/DI, now that I have it should I worry that my rubbermaid sump is causing problems. My phosphates have droped a lot since I got the RO/DI but they haven't disappeared yet, I just figured it hadn't been long enough and enough water changes.
Ryan
Ryan
Generally, these are the most commonly used plastics for fluid containment - water, oil, synthetics, etc. (different receipes, plasticizers, flame retardant, coloring agents gives each plastic its properties & reactive characteristics).
Polypropylene
Polyethylene
Polystyrene
Acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene copolymer =>ABS
Polyvinyl chloride =>PVC
Polycarbonate "lexan" / "bulletproof"
Polymethyl methacrylate => Acrylic / Plexiglass
Thermoplastic polymer =>PET (water bottles)
Polyformaldehyde => Acetal
None of these plastics are effected by storage (short / longterm) of saltwater, RO and / or DI water.
None of these plastics will react with saltwater (NSW,SYN,RO/DI) and leach out any compounds, i.e. plasticizers, coloring agents, etc. Plastic is a very stable, non-reactive polymer chain.
The only "residue" left on the plastic containers after injection molding would be the "releasing agent". Generally a water-based solvent to prevent the plastic from adhering to the metal molds. Good washing with soap & water, and rinse is all thats needed.
Note: good quality "DI" water is very reactive & could (doubtful) possibly breakdown the plasticizers. I know the current DI's on the market / available to general public can't produce this level, period!, IMO
.
I'm fairly confident that most of "Rubbermaid" products are Polypropylene, PVC & Polyethylene based.
Polypropylene
Polyethylene
Polystyrene
Acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene copolymer =>ABS
Polyvinyl chloride =>PVC
Polycarbonate "lexan" / "bulletproof"
Polymethyl methacrylate => Acrylic / Plexiglass
Thermoplastic polymer =>PET (water bottles)
Polyformaldehyde => Acetal
None of these plastics are effected by storage (short / longterm) of saltwater, RO and / or DI water.
None of these plastics will react with saltwater (NSW,SYN,RO/DI) and leach out any compounds, i.e. plasticizers, coloring agents, etc. Plastic is a very stable, non-reactive polymer chain.
The only "residue" left on the plastic containers after injection molding would be the "releasing agent". Generally a water-based solvent to prevent the plastic from adhering to the metal molds. Good washing with soap & water, and rinse is all thats needed.
Note: good quality "DI" water is very reactive & could (doubtful) possibly breakdown the plasticizers. I know the current DI's on the market / available to general public can't produce this level, period!, IMO
I'm fairly confident that most of "Rubbermaid" products are Polypropylene, PVC & Polyethylene based.
Ryan,
IMO you would be better off to only use Rubbermaid containers that meet USDA specs for anything: RO/DI water storage, saltwater storage, sumps, refugiums, etc.
Check out their site. A lot of their products do meet those specs but not all of them. You will have to locate the exact product that you are using on their site and then check the specifications link to see what specs it meets.
Ninong
IMO you would be better off to only use Rubbermaid containers that meet USDA specs for anything: RO/DI water storage, saltwater storage, sumps, refugiums, etc.
Check out their site. A lot of their products do meet those specs but not all of them. You will have to locate the exact product that you are using on their site and then check the specifications link to see what specs it meets.
Ninong
I don't believe polypropylene or polyethylene will react or they wouldn't use them to store acids. However, the materials description for the container that I linked to above just says: PF. So what is that the abbreviation for?
Regardless, Ltspd on Reefland tested his fresh RO/DI water and it tested fine. He tested it after a couple of days in his Rubbermaid container and it tested with high TDS and phosphate (the two tests that he ran).
The response from Rubbermaid was that their containers do leach chemicals unless you purchase one that meets USDA requirements:
United States Department of Agriculture Equipment Listing (Meat and Poultry and 3A Dairy Listing). Items that comply with USDA regulations via the design, construction, and materials of a product.
Ninong
Regardless, Ltspd on Reefland tested his fresh RO/DI water and it tested fine. He tested it after a couple of days in his Rubbermaid container and it tested with high TDS and phosphate (the two tests that he ran).
The response from Rubbermaid was that their containers do leach chemicals unless you purchase one that meets USDA requirements:
United States Department of Agriculture Equipment Listing (Meat and Poultry and 3A Dairy Listing). Items that comply with USDA regulations via the design, construction, and materials of a product.
Ninong
Ninong
I don't believe polypropylene or polyethylene will react or they wouldn't use them to store acids.
You are correct. I'm just saying that certain solvents react with different plastics, i.e. put some laquer thinner in a polystrene cup & it will dispolve the cup, etc.
However, the materials description for the container that I linked to above just says: PF. So what is that the abbreviation for?
PF = PVF = Polyvinyl Flouride. PVC, PVF, PVDC & PVDF = Polyvinylidene chloride or floride.
Very similar properties & characteristics.
Regardless, Ltspd on Reefland tested his fresh RO/DI water and it tested fine. He tested it after a couple of days in his Rubbermaid container and it tested with high TDS and phosphate (the two tests that he ran).
Like you are refering with only 2 tests, limits the extrapolated interpretation of the results.
To many factors that could affect the test.
The response from Rubbermaid was that their containers do leach chemicals unless you purchase one that meets USDA requirements:
This is call "Tort Liability" = "cover your A#$"!
Numerous products mfgd by Rubbermaid are used for water containers that are not "Food=grade".
Looking very quickly through their website, it mentioned:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The only real difference btw the foodgrade & regular is ingredient quality, 0% recylced & approved plasticizers.Majority of the materials mentioned on their site was polypropylene, polycarbonate, polystyrene & vinyls.
Website:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
means purity of ingredients, HACCP = Hazard Analysis Critical Control Program - means containers meet requirements for all liquids used in meat / poultry process.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
NSF = National Sanitation Foundation. Means its meets with FDA for use with approved santitary liquids & color standards.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Meets fire (fire retardants) safety / flammability requirements. ALso correct color coding for process use.
Nothing above has any effect on the product materials either way that affects the reef tank enthusiast.
I have reviewed numerous plastic manufacturing companies over the years and there really isn't that much difference btw food-grade & regular plastic products that would affect the saltwater reef tanks.
Again, this is a personal decision, but, there is no difference / concern when using the numerous, commercially available plastic containers, JMO.
I don't believe polypropylene or polyethylene will react or they wouldn't use them to store acids.
You are correct. I'm just saying that certain solvents react with different plastics, i.e. put some laquer thinner in a polystrene cup & it will dispolve the cup, etc.
However, the materials description for the container that I linked to above just says: PF. So what is that the abbreviation for?
PF = PVF = Polyvinyl Flouride. PVC, PVF, PVDC & PVDF = Polyvinylidene chloride or floride.
Very similar properties & characteristics.
Regardless, Ltspd on Reefland tested his fresh RO/DI water and it tested fine. He tested it after a couple of days in his Rubbermaid container and it tested with high TDS and phosphate (the two tests that he ran).
Like you are refering with only 2 tests, limits the extrapolated interpretation of the results.
To many factors that could affect the test.
The response from Rubbermaid was that their containers do leach chemicals unless you purchase one that meets USDA requirements:
This is call "Tort Liability" = "cover your A#$"!
Numerous products mfgd by Rubbermaid are used for water containers that are not "Food=grade".
Looking very quickly through their website, it mentioned:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
.
The only real difference btw the foodgrade & regular is ingredient quality, 0% recylced & approved plasticizers.Majority of the materials mentioned on their site was polypropylene, polycarbonate, polystyrene & vinyls.
Website:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
means purity of ingredients, HACCP = Hazard Analysis Critical Control Program - means containers meet requirements for all liquids used in meat / poultry process.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
NSF = National Sanitation Foundation. Means its meets with FDA for use with approved santitary liquids & color standards.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Meets fire (fire retardants) safety / flammability requirements. ALso correct color coding for process use.
Nothing above has any effect on the product materials either way that affects the reef tank enthusiast.
I have reviewed numerous plastic manufacturing companies over the years and there really isn't that much difference btw food-grade & regular plastic products that would affect the saltwater reef tanks.
Again, this is a personal decision, but, there is no difference / concern when using the numerous, commercially available plastic containers, JMO.
Cruiser,
I wonder why certain colors, like green, blue, and red do not meet USDA requirements, while other colors like white, gray, and yellow do? The only difference that I can see is the color? That seemed to hold true across their product line. Any thoughts on that?
Ninong
P.S. -- It might still be a good idea if you haven't yet purchased your Rubbermaid container to check first to see which ones meet the USDA requirements (and which colors) and look for one of those just in case there's something to what they're saying.
Maybe they know something we don't. Incidentally, more than one hobbyist contacted them (from both Reef Central and Reefland) and received the same advice. Maybe that's just their stock answer like you say.
I wonder why certain colors, like green, blue, and red do not meet USDA requirements, while other colors like white, gray, and yellow do? The only difference that I can see is the color? That seemed to hold true across their product line. Any thoughts on that?
Ninong
P.S. -- It might still be a good idea if you haven't yet purchased your Rubbermaid container to check first to see which ones meet the USDA requirements (and which colors) and look for one of those just in case there's something to what they're saying.
Ninong
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You can have any color you want for "Food Grade / FDA approved" plastic containers for consumer use (i.e. red bottle for chocolate milk).
The "product line" you are referencing is regarding companies using these products in their manufacturing / processing operations, i.e. meat cutting / adulteration.
The various industries & regulatory agencies have over the years standardized certain aspects of the industry (food in this example), like colors of plastic containers used for santitation & food product movement through manufacturing process. This is a very simple way to make sure cross contamination doesn't happen, i.e. use a "yellow" santitation container for transfering meat in the plant.
Also just because this polypropylene bucket is approved for dairy, doesn't mean its approved for poultry
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You can have any color you want for "Food Grade / FDA approved" plastic containers for consumer use (i.e. red bottle for chocolate milk).
The "product line" you are referencing is regarding companies using these products in their manufacturing / processing operations, i.e. meat cutting / adulteration.
The various industries & regulatory agencies have over the years standardized certain aspects of the industry (food in this example), like colors of plastic containers used for santitation & food product movement through manufacturing process. This is a very simple way to make sure cross contamination doesn't happen, i.e. use a "yellow" santitation container for transfering meat in the plant.
Also just because this polypropylene bucket is approved for dairy, doesn't mean its approved for poultry
both rubbermaid containers i looked at homedepot yesterday are maid of the same material, at least the main part is ,ldpe, low density polyethalene. but is there anything else diff. the brute can (usda) is a thicker can then the roughneck, is this the only diff.?
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