Calcium/Alkalinity still!

[Boba]

I have read every article I can find on maintaining these and my situation just doesn't make sense!
Salinity - 1.025
Alk - 8dKh (2.86meq/L)
Ph - 8.2-8.3
Calcium - 320
Magnesium - 1290
I have tried raising my Calcium level using water changes, dripping kalk (24/7), Seachem Reef Advantage and most recently Kent Turbo Calcium with no success. Using Salifert test kits. By the way, last 2 batches of IO Salt only mixed to a Calcium level of 330 (I am sending them a sample). Would appreciate any help or advice offered. P.S.- users of Turbo Calcium, how much are you dosing? Thanks!!!

 

[Jeff Hood]

Thats weard. My freshly mixed Reef crystals reads Ca of 415 and an alk of 5.3meq/l(14 dkh) thats mixed to a 32ppt salinity. Ph was 8.0

My tank runs an alk of 3.9 Meq/l and a Calcium of 380 to 420.

I do use sea chems products. Tank is fairly new and Not much ca demand.

I use Lamotte test kits.

Jeff

 

[reefworm]

Boba,
Just for some perspective, how old is the tank, and what's in it at this point?

You could try dripping kalk just at night when lights are out [keeps a more stable pH as well, as it will tend to keep it up once photosynthesis in the tank has shut down for the night]. Many additives are capable of counter-acting each other. So you might look into the two-part additives, such as B-ionic. Others have found good success w/Kent's turbo calcium. When adding calcium supplements and buffering agents it's often a good idea to add them several hours apart to avoid the counteraction. Once levels are up where you want them, the kalk drip will maintain it. Kalk alone often will not raise the numbers.

Lots of ways to achieve a good balance, and you'll find devotees of them all on this board. The main thing is to take things slowly and consistently. Find what works for you - every tank is different.

Your Ca++ and alk. numbers are a bit low, but not terrible. Ramp up slowly so as not to stress anyone. Once you're in the ballpark, keep testing, but let the visible life and health of your inhabitants be your guide as well. "Chasing numbers" can drive you crazy

If everyone's healthy and growing, don't worry about the difference between 400ppm and 420ppm, for example.

HTH
regards,
rw

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: reefworm ]

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: reefworm ]

 

[Anonymous]

First off, I would suggest you relax and not fall to the common mistake of getting wrapped around numbers. Your test kit at best as has an accuracy of +/- 50ppm so it could be 370 or even 270 you are looking for a basic range not a specific target and while you want to raise your calcium level in time the current level is not going to make or break the tank.

Instead of playing chemist and using 40 different products I'd suggest that you pick one method and go with it. From my experience, it can often take weeks to months for a tank's water chemistry to be come adjusted to a certain method of calcium maintenance and that they do not react well to different products on a continous basis. I would suggest that you pick something like B-Ionic or Tropic Marin's BioCalcium and use only that for a minimum of 3-6 months before you "try" something else. It is common to see no real change in chemistry for many weeks then all of a sudden the product kicks in and your calcium levels raise from 300 to 450.

 

[somethings fishy]

I have to second the comment of the turbo cal instructions being misleading I had to dump large amounts of it upwards of of 2-3 teaspoons in my 75G to get it to raise the levels. Nathan sound about right 2-3 tsp in my 75G raised it about 20-30 PPM I dumped it directly into the overflow and would turn of the return pump for a few minutes. i felt like it didn't work as well pre mixing in a cup of water, but I could be wrong. Also be patient adding to much additives is as bad as not enough as they pretty much produce the same results of lowering your levels instead of raising them. I believe their is a diference between the reef crystals salt and the plain IO.

 

[Nathan1]

The instructions on Kent Turbo Calcium is misleading.

In my 75g tank, 1 full (heaping) teaspoon of Turbo Calcium raises my calcium level by 10ppm. You can multiply or divide for how ever big your tank is.

Your calcium level ideally should not go below 400ppm, and you could afford to boost your alk somewhat, to at least 3meq/l, but it's better to keep it at around at least 3.5-4meq/l for aweseome results, and calcium at 440ppm.

For your information, 1 full (heaping) teaspoon of Kent Superbuffer dKH, raises my 75g tank by 0.25meq/l

Hope that helps,

-Nathan

PS Don't be afraid to mix up some of these chemicals in separate cups of RO/DI water and slowly pour it in your tank. It does not need to be dosed drip by drip like kalkwasser. DON'T MIX THE CALCIUM WITH THE ALKALINITY.

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: Nathan ]

 

[Mike02]

Boba, your test kit is inaccurate if freshly mixed salt water measured 330ppm calcium.
In response to the person above who said 440 ppm is ideal. i believe 400ppm is the saturation level. Calcium will precipitate out above that.

 

[stevemcadoo]

Mike,maybe the salt he had does not have large amounts of calcium like reef tank specific salt like Reef Crystals. True , test kit could be off. I use a titrate kit which seems to be very accurate. But your second statement is a little out of line. If his alk is low (which its not high)your calcium can be very high. I used to drip kalkwasser but did very little to the alk (I assumed the kalk would maintain.) Well the calcium was 500 and alk was 2meq/l. I actually had to remove some water to get calcium level right then bring up alk, and it stayed. The alk and calcium sort of balance-if alk gets too high the calcium can get low, and if calcium gets too high the alk can get low. I have found that trying to bring up calcium too quickly will cause the ph to get higher that optimal. It does not seem to hurt anything but you might watch that. I use seachem reef builder to maintain alk. I followed GARFs advice to alternate top off with reef builder one week then reef advantage calcium the next. It seems to work in my tank.Hope that helps. Steve.

 

[stevemcadoo]

I forgot something, the calcium level 440 is about as high as you can get it without affecting alk. I didnt quite clear that up in my last letter. you can go higher than 400 safely without affecting alk, and I have tried to get 420 or so as my point to maintain, that way I dont get too high to affect alk,and I dont have too test constantly. It makes it easier on me. Also to the guy that said just dump in powdered calcium, You should mix in fresh water first. Read the directions. Dont have sudden changes in your water. Even if you are bringing it up from less than optimal to optimal, do it slowy. I use an IV set spiked into a one gallon milk jug(silconed around the spike) and can run it at a good drip rate so it takes several hours and it seems fine. steve

 

[Nathan1]

Let's clear up some issues.

1. Calcium WILL NOT precipitate at 440ppm or below if your alk is at 4meq/l and pH doesn't exceed 8.3.

2. It is fine to mix and match different techniques. It's not uncommon for people with calcium reactors to also dose kalkwasser, and for those who have one value skewed, to dose a little superbuffer or turbo calcium. Do keep in mind that a prolonged dosing of only one of the two part mixes will slightly skew your Cl- ions or Na+ ions, but that will take a very long time.

3. It's not advisable to pour any powdered mix directly into your water column as this will create extremely high concentrations of calcium, or alkalinity in a local zone and could cause local percipitation. Alkalinity mix is more likely to do this than calcium, but it could happen with both.

4. It's advisable to mix a spoon or two of the chemical in a plastic cup using RO/DI water. This will not make the chemical any less effective because even if it's dissolved, it's still got one spoon's worth of chemical regardless.

5. Calcium and alkalinity complement eachother, and for best results they should be in their correct ratios.

I'm looking for a link which has a calcium/alkalinity calculator on it. If I find it I'll post it.

-Nathan

 

[Nathan1]

Here we go. Here's one of the most valuable sites available for calculating a balanced alk/calcium ratio:
http://www.andy-hipkiss.freeserve.co.uk/caalkcalc.htm

Also, read this for an explaination of why your additives should be balanced.
http://www.andy-hipkiss.freeserve.co.uk/caalkbal.htm

Also, check out the rest of his site here:
http://www.andy-hipkiss.freeserve.co.uk/

-Nathan

 

[jdeets]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nathan:
<STRONG>Let's clear up some issues.

2. It is fine to mix and match different techniques. It's not uncommon for people with calcium reactors to also dose kalkwasser, and for those who have one value skewed, to dose a little superbuffer or turbo calcium. Do keep in mind that a prolonged dosing of only one of the two part mixes will slightly skew your Cl- ions or Na+ ions, but that will take a very long time.

-Nathan</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nathan's statement is generally correct. However, the thing to remember if you're going to mix and match is that your chemical components be compatible. Kalkwasser use along with a calcium reactor works fine, and you can use calcium choloride or sodium bicarbonate in conjunction with both of these (for achieving balance), because these methods directly provide ionic biomineral components. However, you wouldn't want to use a bound calcium product (some are bound with sugars) in conjunction with ionic products, like kalk, CaCl2 or Na(CO3)2.

 

[liquid]

Boba,

You may want to also read this article:

How to Mix a Batch of Synthetic Seawater in Under Five Minutes by Craig Bingman

Depending on how you mix your saltwater can have a HUGE impact on your resulting calcium levels as mixing it improperly can lead to precipitation of various salts. From what I've gathered, adding the salt to the water *slowly* while the water is under a lot of agitation is key to mixing it up properly. Improper mixing can have a 100 ppm difference on your Ca levels. There was a thread about this on ReefCentral last week. You may want to go and search thru their board for it...

hth

liquid

 

[Nathan1]

Thanks Jdeets! I forgot to mention that kalkwasser cannot be dosed with anything else dissolved in the same liquid.

-Nathan

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Nathan ]

 

[reefworm]

Liquid and Nathan,
Thanks for the terrific links! Just a side note, related to another post....

I don't know how many times questions about calcium/alk balance have been posted here - thousands? The argument could be made that it's pointless to continue posting such common questions, they've been answered so many times, etc. However, there's always something to be learned. Just those links alone were worth going over old ground again.

Thanks again.

 

[Nathan1]

Smokin,

The Turbo Calcium *may* be ok to dump into your water, but if you are running your levels high (like alk >4, calcium >450, pH >8.4) then you *could* experience some local precipitation. Isn't it better to be safe than sorry? If it has been working for you thus far, then I don't see a need to change, but keep in mind that it *is* possible that it could clump up when it hits the water and it *could* deplete a small amount of calcium carbonate from your water.

Now, the alkalinity... I would surely not advise anyone to dump it dry, into your tank.

It's just safer to mix each one in it's own cup of RO/DI water, outside the tank. It takes about 60 seconds longer.

-Nathan

 

[smokin reefer]

For those of you who say that you have to mix the kent turbo calcium outside the tank, you need to read on. It also says that "or add so that granules don't land on any animals." I have been adding the turbo calcium in my sump for some time with no ill result. Someone straighten me out if I am wrong.

Boba, what test kit are you checking you mag. levels with? Just curious.

 

[randy holmes-farley]

In one of my recent AF articles I wondered aloud if it were possible to get any calcium phosphate precipitation by rapidly adding CaCl2 (like turbo calcium or B-ionic). I don't know whether it happens or not.
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=&RecordNo=2481