Banggai Cardinal Extint in the wild ???

[Anonymous]

I was just reading an article from Freshwater and Marine Aquarium February 2000 About a study performed by Dr. Gerald Allen and Doug Fenner about the Togean and Banggai Islands of Indonesia.

Only four years after the Banggai Cardinal had been introduced to the Aquarium trade the numbers were diminishing so rapidly it was believed they woud be extint before Conservation International (Great Org in my opinion.) would be able to get the wild caught trade banned. Seeing how these fish are so easily breed in captivity (two in my tank propagated by Butch Meader) I hope that people do not go screaming into the night about that evil word Ban.

I was hoping someone could update me on if the Fish is still in the wild and if it is banned from wild capture?

FWIW both men concluded that Banggai Cardinals natuaral populations were in a serious decline due to over harvesting for the Aquarium Trade.

 

[SPC]

Dave, they are not banned, my LFS gets them and he dosen't purchase tank raised anything.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

The article did say it takes up to two years to get a ban in place.

I know Jim buys tank raised when he can get them on any fish available. He gets in tank raised percs and gets Cardinals from Butch.

 

[gazpep]

I wasn't aware of their possible extinction in the Wild but knew that they'd only been found in an extremely small range in Indonesia so it would be a terrible loss if it's true. I suppose the fact that they are domestically bred is a great saviour in this case.

Who knows they may be re-introduced in the future and it would be a case of the hobby saving animals rather than the usual bans and negatives for a change.

 

[Anonymous]

If a fish is as easily breed in captivity as the Banggai Cardinal, would'nt it be a positive thing to ban wild capture?

 

[SPC]

Dave, IMO yes. One problem is the wild caught are cheaper than tank raised. A second problem is supply and demand, tank raised can't keep up with demand. My thoughts are to ban the import of them regardless of this.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gazpep:
<STRONG>I wasn't aware of their possible extinction in the Wild but knew that they'd only been found in an extremely small range in Indonesia so it would be a terrible loss if it's true. I suppose the fact that they are domestically bred is a great saviour in this case.

Who knows they may be re-introduced in the future and it would be a case of the hobby saving animals rather than the usual bans and negatives for a change.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know gazpep. The traditional conservation philosophy was that reintroductions from captive bred stock was a good thing. This paradigm is starting to change though and I believe the evidence and scientists on both sides are evenly matched as of now. The new fears are new disease, loss of genetic diversity and originality from locale, wasted effort, etc.

The same thing is true of when "GARF.org" tried to feed everyone that BS about reintroducing the yellow neptheas following the bleaching events of 98-99. I don't believe that ever happened.

 

[FMarini]

Hi all:
great topic.
So about 2 yrs ago John Tullock published an article @ aquarium frpntiers, suggesting that their was a noticable decline in the banggai population from when the original cenus was taken. He concluded(probably correctly) that the banggai was infact being wiped out from its only known locale. Since then a few groups including the "rediscoverer" gerald allen have treked to banggai and done very cursory suveys and also concluded that the banggai population has declined, and this article you mention was an essay reporting this discovery.
Recently Alex vasgeli (NJ state Aq)has embarked on an accurate survey strictly on taking cenus of the banggai cardinal populations. From what i recall this cenus would take months to complete and longer to anaylse the results.
So I won't say either way whether banggais are on their way out.

W/ that said. yes banggai breed easy in captivty, HOWEVER from the over 3500 emails i recieved on banggai care/husbandry question, i can tell you emphatically that raising banggai fry seem more the problem, many people cannot seem to find the key to raising fry past few weeks, so this is a problem, additionally commerical propagation of banggais are exceedingly slow. These fish have VERY low feceunidty rates (25fry veruses 200 fry for clownfish), and only breed once/month (versus 2-3 times monthly) making then a poor commerical fish. Hence the reason why places like C-quest have not adopted a large interest in banggai.
Lastly(the good news)
Scott Micahels has recently reported that new populations of banggais have been discovered, NOT neveer their original locale, it appears these new populations are offsprings of escapees which have left collecting facilities in other islands.
So are banggais extinct..Not yet...
But I'm all for banning/CITEs protections.
To read more on breeding/raising banggai http://www.eparc.com/banggai/banggai.shtml
frank

 

[Tanu]

I'm all for banning/CITEs protections.. This fish is easy-to-breed, but, as said: the numbers are low. One batch of anemonefish can consist of hundreds of fish, one batch of cardinals only of 30 or so, when one is lucky..

Even some (all?) exporters which export cardinals list them as RARE! Other fish which are listed as 'rare' are the holy grail of angels, conspicullum, gem tang and so on.. I think when even an exporter lists the fish as 'rare' this gives some food for thought..

Tanu
www.tanu.nl

 

[Anonymous]

Been doing some more digging here is Conservation Internationals press release from 1998 Consrvation International
I still have not found about the ban but I will send an e-mail to them to see if it is still being persued.
This article does not qoute the same as the Magizine article but it does not contridict it either.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

I can not get the the link to work hereis the address, maybe some one can get it to work

http//www.conservation.org/WEB/NEWS/PRESSREL/98-1207.htm

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

 

[Anonymous]

I think I have the link now.
Fingers crossedConsrvation International

 

[naesco]

We should ban purchasing them unless they are certifed tank raised.
We do not need to have some organization tell us two years from now.
We know what we need to do NOW!
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Gazpep, I agree with you in theory, but the ban would need to be in place before tank raised were re-introduced. I have not been a part of a fish re introduction but here are some hurdles we had to overcome in reintroducing Tamarins to Brazil, even after they were taught to forage on thier own.

Secondary forest could not provide the diverse foods necessary for a good diet.

Predation instinct was not taught by parents and lead to extremly high mortality.

No socialization skills with wild popualation lead to territory desputes that re-introduced Tamarins could not deal with.

On and on.

The reintroduction is constantly being refined but thee first option is always manage the numbers of wild populations. This is where a ban becomes a positive idea in my view.

Naesco,
I have had some experience with his orginazation before with Primates and from that experience I can say this is purely volunteers and some of the best people in ther chosen fields of biology.
I agree wih your sentiment of why wait,I sent an e-mail inquiring what was the status of the proposed Ban.
We can not change the laws of Indonesia but we can stop the importation of animals that have provin to have drasticly reduced numbers in the wild. I once did a international survey on the mortality rates of captive breed Howler Monkeys and different stimuli that could have affected the high mortality rates. The response of European and South Ameican countries is unbelievable on conservation issues.

If you want to move the agenda forward please get involved here is the E-mail

<A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>

 

[naesco]

Yes Dave I sent an email.
We as reefers have an opportunity to show that we are concerned about conservation of this species.
We only gain if we are among the first to push for total restriction on the capture and importation of the banggai cardinal.
I would encourage everyone to send an email.
Thank you

 

[FMarini]

Naesco:
I agree -we as reef/aquarist should be active/proactive and support captive breeding, and conservation of the species, especially since banggais will most likely be the first poster child for "is the hobby detrimental to the species we keep in our aquariums". But we need more information first.

About 2 yrs ago the breeders registry set up the banggai cardinal conservation and studbook committee(w/ myself as president) in a response to be proactive, to weigh all the important facts, and make recommendations towards the collective being of this species(i.e. would reintroduction be a viable solution). Also to register peoples fish so we can prevetn inbreeding and pass around the banggai genes.
Well we still don't have all the facts, we still don't really know if the banggai population is declining (this was suggested 2 yrs ago and yet we still see a steady supply of banggais), and worse becuz of all the civil unrest in the phillipines, its been unsafe to travel to this island to survey.

W/ that said. I feel your sentiments, and have always implored people to buy captive born/raised(CB/CR) banggais. I've reponded to over 3500 emails asking for banggai breeding help, and honestly until the hobby is ready to pay $30-60/banggai, it will continue to be wildcaught.
The hobby decides...nevermind those other problems mentioned in reintroducing species
my opinion
frank

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: FMarini ]

 

[Scott D Passe]

Hi All,

Those of you that know me are aware that I have worked on preventing the blanket importation ban of species such as macro algae, etc.

However, I think it is time that we as hobbyists organize a group to identify and recommend species that should be banned as wild caught.

Although it can be demonstrated that a sustainable import of many wild caught species can be managed, the hobbyist trade is depleting certain species.

By “allowing” this to happen, we are playing right into the hands of those environmentalists who would like to ban most of the pet industry. In other words, if hobbyists can be demonstrated to have solely and completely eliminated a species such as the banggai cardinal from the wild, we are providing these “environmentalists” with the equivalent of a “Spotted Owl Poster child.”

I have been is this hobby for 20 years, and remember many “importation ban scares” in the past. But the I really feel that now, we are on the verge of being legislated out of this hobby, especially if we do not become more proactive on these issues.

Regards,

Scott Passe

 

[Anonymous]

My votes -

Banggai -except for a 10 - 1 swap for genetic diversification. ie. ship 10 to Banggai Island to be released and take 1 back. Or on a larger scale release 1000 and capture 100.

Green Flowerpot Goniopora - except for certified research into propogation.

As you can tell, I'm out of my element here. But why import species that are in danger in the wild and yet so easy to breed in captivity. The goni's, well they don't seem to fare too well except for 1 in 1000...

 

[Anonymous]

I have been doing some follow up work in an effort to find more specific details on what is the status of the wild Banggai Cardinal.

I have been speaking with sevaral people at conservation International and this afternoon I had a very nice coversation with Dr. Gerald Allen about what his thoughts wer on the status of the wild populations of Banggai Carbinals and the need for a wild caugh ban.

Dr Allen said that with the "Natural" distribution of the Banggai Cardinal and the breeding habits it is not a question that they are not a sustainable wild caught spieces. He says "Natural" range because he is very skepticle of the locations these fish are being found in now. The places they are showing up in, just so happen to be places that Wholesalers ship from and it would appear to be a seeding process of introducing non-indigenous specieces for convienent shipping.

He wanted to push for CITIES protection but it is best if the place that the animal originates from is the government that is petitioning for the protection. With the statistics that Alex Vasgeli is compiling will help to take possible alternitive measures in perserving this spieces from extintion in the wild.

Dr. Allen gave me some contacts, one being Alex Vasgeli, to folllow up and anything he can do to follow up on conservation he would like to be a part of. He will conclude his speaking tour in a few months and I wil give him a call in Austraila.

Anyway this is part of what we discussed and thought ya'll might want to know. I will be fallowing up on monday.

 

[FMarini]

Fishaholic:
Dr Allen is a great guy and has been pushing for CITES protection from day one for this fish.
A minor problem is that usually the country the animal is found in, has to file for its protections. I've not seen one indication of this from the Sulawesi. I hope Alex's census bears fruit, so we can support a petition w/ some scientific data.
I'm also glad that Dr Allen confirmed the report i described above, in that these new populations of banggais were nothing more then new group established from wholesalers (releasing fish into their locale).
The goodnews there is that if these new populations can sustain the wholesalers requirements, then the original banggai locale can be given time to recover and thrive.

I'd like to hear more info on monday.
If you talk w/ Alex, please give him me best regards
frank

 

[SPC]

Thanks for the info Dave, please keep us updated.
Steve