Poland Spring bottle in tank?

[ezee]

Russ,

lol! I think he just wants to try it. I am not sure how it will work either, but maybe he will work it out and add a whole new facet to the debate. Bare Bottom, Deep Sand Bed or Sand in a Bottle!


Walter,

Maybe you could try a dedicated ph and run a line through the bottle with holes at either end?

E

 

[cali_reef]

Calfo advocates DSB for nitrate removal and had suggested using a 5 gallon bucket filled with sand submerged in the sump, its has to be a pretty big sump.

I think the idea is the same but different container to hold the sand. 12 oz water bottles are a bit small, how about a few 2 ltr soda bottles with the top portion cut off?

 

[joseney21]

waltercat i don't know if they sell it, but if you get a sheet of the material used for filter bags you could probably lay that down beneath and around the DSB to make it easy for removal.

does this make sense??

 

[kimoyo]

I've never heard a legimate reason for the necessity of infauna in a DSB. Everything that I've been told doesn't make sense from a physical standpoint. There could be a very good reason and I have not heard the reason yet.

Also DSBs don't need water flowing thru them to work. This is completely opposite what you want because the process needs to work by diffusion. Also a strong flow over the bottles shouldn't be necessary if they are in the tank.

Walter, sounds like an interesting idea. But I don't see multiple bottles being more efficient (maybe as efficient) than one bucket. How are you going to hide the bottles? And what about them tipping over?

 

[meschaefer]

I've never heard a legimate reason for the necessity of infauna in a DSB. Everything that I've been told doesn't make sense from a physical standpoint. There could be a very good reason and I have not heard the reason yet.

QUOTE]


my understanding is that the fauna add too the dsb in at least two ways. One they aid in the detrius breakdown as it settles to the top of the sand bed. Two they create some movement in the sand bed which aids in the movement of water into the sand bed, by looseining (sp!...for the life of me i cant figure out the correct spelling right now)the sand and preventing it from clumping. If the water can't get to the differrent layers in the sand bed, then the bacteria can't do their thing. I remember reading an article in Reefkeeping many years ago which detailed this.. when I have time later I will see if I can find it.

Matthew

 

[kimoyo]

Thanks Matthew. I've actually heard those arguments before.

But there are things called heterotrophic bacteria in your tank. These guys are organic degraders (they break down organics) and they grow twice as fast as the other nitrifying bacteria. Now, if you we can believe that the other nitrifying bacteria are effective for denitrification and all the other stuff, we should also believe that heterotrophic bacteria are effective. I've actually had Dr. Ron tell me that nutrient processing in shallow sand beds cease because there are no infauna. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Clumping in sand comes from ph swings. If you keep your ph straight, you sand will be straight. There are a lot of hobbyist with sandbeds w/o infauna and no clumping.

Lastly, you have to ask yourself why exactly oxygen doesn't get down to the lower levels of a dsb. The molecules are definitely small enough to go down there past the sand particles. Its because you build up bacteria in the upper levels and they use it up in aerobic processes. The denitrification process is a diffusional one and letting animals dig holes in the sand, where water and air can rush in, seem counterproductive to me. Just think about it for a sec.

 

[masterswimmer]

Paul, in a very brief nutshell.....as the sand remains compacted the surface area seems to shrink. As the infauna 'aerates' the SB it expands offering a larger surface area for the denitrifying process.

I think this debate is one similar to DSB vs. BB. It can go on forever.

Russ

 

[waltercat]

I think I might change my intial bottle idea and use 4-5 1.5 liter bottles. I'll cut them 4-5" above the base which will give them a larger opening allowing circulation, detritus, and critters to enter. Also I won't have to worry about the glue.

This seems like it would be similar to a bucket in a larger sump. Or a remote DSB for that matter.

I'll chronical my setup for ya'll to check out. Should be happening Wednesday so long as i get my sand.

For those of you who worry about the aesthetics, fear not, I plan to pile a ton of rock on it so it is hidden.

Thanks for the wonderful discussion, I got a ton of great feedback from everyone.

 

[kimoyo]

Paul, in a very brief nutshell.....as the sand remains compacted the surface area seems to shrink. As the infauna 'aerates' the SB it expands offering a larger surface area for the denitrifying process.

I think this debate is one similar to DSB vs. BB. It can go on forever.

Russ

Hey Russ,

Yeah I've heard similar stuff too. The infauna eat the sand but don't digest it, cleaning off the bacteria and pooping out clean sand. But this maks the assumption that bacteria need help to continue functioning and I don't believe that. And how compact can the sand get that it can really limit the diffusion process and bacteria growth? Solbby knows more about this and I'm sure he could explain it better than I could.

But I don't think this is the DSB vs. BB debate. I mean there are soo many people out there without infauna in their sandbed with great tanks for years. How much more proof do we need?

 

[Hotwheels]

Hey Waltercat,

off the back is sound pretty wild, but after reading thru the thread it sounds possible as long as you take a few things into consideration.
Do not completely cover the tops this will stop the detrius from landing on the sand.
Flow is important, but only above the sand (Not on or through) in order to maintain a chemical exchange.
The containers should also allow room for expansion.
You bio load will still be very limited.
In theory it can work, maybe not how you would like, but it is very intereting to see what you come up with.

It sounds like u r trying to create a removal Juabert System, without the plemun space.

 

[waltercat]

Okay, as promised, here's some pics of my setup. I only have 4 bottles and plan to add 2 more when my wife finishes drinking the water.

 

[aaron23]

* interesting. :scratchch

 

[coralcrazy]

hm..looks a bit strange to me...but great place to keep frags..

 

[Tonyscoots84]

walter what do u have in those half bottles of sand that will be moving the sand.......

 

[ezee]

Waltercat,

So you did do it! I would love the see the bottles again a few months and also find out what your readings are. Nice follow up.

E

 

[loismustdie]

Don't get me wrong, they say you can reduce nitrates a little using 20% of the entire bottom of the tank, such as using a remote sandbed in a 10 gallon tank when you're running a 50 gallon main display, but not as much as you would hope to. The going number is at least 75% of the bottom of the main display to get the desired results. The amount of ditritus that is going to collect in between the bottles IMO will probably create more nitrates than those little bottles can effect any change on.
I'm no expert. I sure as hell am no scientist. I hope you prove me dead wrong. I just don't see any point in this.

 

[House of Laughter]

I think you'd have more success if you cut the bottoms out of gallon containers and used like 4 of then at 3" deep each and put them about your tank. Seems that would work best to "catch" the detrius etc and give better room for sifters - keep in mind they only go about an inch or so below the surface.

FWIW

House

 

[masterswimmer]

I like the idea of thinking beyond the norm.....outside the box. However, I am still a huge skeptic of this plan. The problem is that in order to see if it works, you'll most likely be sacrificing some of the animals we all try so hard to keep alive. But without trial and error, we'd never make any advancements.

Seems like much more of a detritus trap between the bottles like Chris said than any benefit you'd get from the bottles.

Good luck and keep the updates coming.

Russ

 

[waltercat]

Okay, I have another update.

I decided that House is right and that it would be better to use gallon jugs. So today I cut the label side off of 2 gallon jugs and filled those with the sand. I would take a pic, but there is zero visibility in my tank right now. I'll take it when it clears up.

masterswimmer, thanks for your concern, but I doubt that this sort of setup would directly bring harm to my tank. I have had a 15G setup for about 4 years with a similar setup. The only difference is that now I am placing them in containers so as to more efficiently create an anaerobic environment. In my 15G I made 1/4 of the tank a DSB at 4". The rest of the tank was 2-3 inches. I created a shelf with rocks to hold back the sand on one side of my tank and found that it was not the most efficient way to keep sand in. So this time around I am using th jugs and doubling the volume of DSB as I now have a 33G tank. Also, I ususally stay away from difficult or sensitive animals.

As for detritus, I will fill the few gaps with sand so as to avoid the collection. However I don't see how that would make much of a difference considering that our tanks are full of rock, which allows for detritus traps at every configuration.

Here's a pic of my 15g to show my previous "in tank" refugium. Yes, it wasn't a true refugium, but it did act as a nice filtration system.


Oh I did have one more question. The bottles I am using are gallon jugs that held distilled water. It is a different plastic that poland spring. It is more similar to that from milk jugs. Will this cause any harm? I'm not all that familiar with plastics.

 

[waltercat]

Okay, here's some pics with the gallon bottles.

Again if anyone has any experience (good or bad) on this type of plastic, please let me know.

I will post more pics when I rearange my rocks to cover it.